Kinetic energy of Round balls

Well, several of you stated I was kidding myself if I thought a PRB would properly take deer out at 200 yards, and after some careful study at the range today, and with ballistics program I must say, you are proven correct.

Ive been more concerned with accuracy, and consistancy, and today began a serious look at energy delivered.

Sure, I can smack target out there a 200 consistantly, big deal. When one starts to examine the actual performance on the targets, and then look at the chron and ballistics for energy, Ill concede, a 50 cal round ball out of my percussion rifle just aint got the impact for an ethical shot, much past 100. I started out in a dreamworld where I thought I could shoot a deer at 200, then lowered it down to 150, and now today, must admit, Im setting 100 as my personal limit with the muzzle loader.

The more I shoot and study, by gosht the smarter you guys get. Thanks for being sticklers for the facts, pointing it out and steering me in the right direction, and...without calling me an idiot.

>>>----->Apache<-----<<< :thanks:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Glad you came to that conclusion. In my early 20's a friend and I would shoot woodchucks out to 200 yards with T/C Senecas and Maxi-balls. The roundballs didn't carry near as well, though they did the job if the critter was unlucky enough to catch one.

I limit myself to the ranges I have practiced at, and 120 yards would require a mighty "right" feeling and a solid rest with a deer standing patiently broadside. That remains my longest shot on a deer, and that one I spotted as he approached and he bedded at that distance. I took 15 minutes oozing around into position around the tree I was sitting under and had a rest on the limbs of a blow-down that made a natural ground blind. Some shots at half that distance I have passed on because of cover or other problems. Every shot has to be evaluated when it comes along. Accepting the challenge of hunting with a round ball does limit your range, but makes the steaks taste much better later on. :front:

 

[Zonie]

Glad you saw the light.
A lot of people come to the world of muzzleloading without realizing it is limited by the choice of the weapon.
IMO, muzzleloading is a cross between the modern guns and Bow Hunting.
Out to 100-120 yards, the ole roundball is very controlable and will humanly take game as well, if not better than most modern guns.

Compared with modern rifles, muzzleloading changes Shooting back into Hunting.
The fact that you've only got one shot adds a challenge the modern shooters won't understand and many won't like, but when your successful, you will know it was your skill (not the BARs speed or Swarovski's precision) that made the hunt a success.

 

Yep, more I think about it, Hunting with ML PRB, is just like Traditional (Self,longbow, Recurve) bow hunting, just get another 75 yards or so distance buffer so you dont have to be quite as sneaky.

 

[Tahquamenon]

Yep, more I think about it, Hunting with ML PRB, is just like Traditional (Self,longbow, Recurve) bow hunting, just get another 75 yards or so distance buffer so you dont have to be quite as sneaky.

I doubt you will find a traditional bow hunter to agree with you.

Also, with open sights it's mostly a question of what target area you can actually see at distance, along with practice at that distance. For many, beyond 100-125 yards your target area is typically obstructed by the front sight so you cannot truly tell where you are aiming at.

:m2c:

 

[WV_Hillbilly]

Glad you saw the light.
A lot of people come to the world of muzzleloading without realizing it is limited by the choice of the weapon.
IMO, muzzleloading is a cross between the modern guns and Bow Hunting.
Out to 100-120 yards, the ole roundball is very controlable and will humanly take game as well, if not better than most modern guns.

You got that range limitations right on the money too. I did some testing many years back to satisfy my cat-like curiousity about PRB vs conical; and why there's an advantage (if one at all any exists) as far as potential accuracy or with judging drop is concerned. The conical does strike with more authority (KE, MV, TKO, Cooper, or whatever formula you care to use). I even came up with my own formula for determining the "correct" average weight of the game animal based on the bullets various characteristics. PM me if anyone is interested--though I strongly warn you that the results and formula apply mainly to centerfire rifles and typical jacketed soft point bullets. I suppose that it might work for muzzleloading lead projectiles as well... hmmm... now I've got that to work on this afternoon as well!

It's also no coincidence that the comparison of trajectories between a PRB and a conical at 120-125 yards has basically the same amount of drop. It's just more a matter of what the individuals' guns likes better AND more importantly, how well the shooter can shoot it. I've got a "muzzleloading student" of sorts--a friend who recently has taken up muzzleloading hunting/shooting. He came upon that conclusion himself, which I thought was very insightful for him to reckon upon that information.

I only have shot one muzzleloading rifle (belonging to a good friend who owns a gun shop) that I would consider taking a shot further than 125yds with and that gun is neither slow twist, nor uses patched round balls. It is in fact a .45 caliber Whitworth (shooting +500gr conicals), which I have seen take out small targets at 200yds. It does this with as little effort as a groundhog hunter with a 16x scope on a .22-250.

It (the Whitworth) doesn't really handle shooting round balls well at all (or so I've always been told)--though curiously, I've never seen any information on that particular subject. I have always considered the Whitworth as my "Holy Grail" of muzzleloading rifles, yet for some strange reason, I find that I can't justify all the expense for what seems like just basically a different barrel and rifling--vs another typical 3 band 1853 Enfield rifle... should I be that concerned?

Does anyone here have a Whitworth rifle that could tell me if they can shoot patched round balls through their gun AND if it is worth doing? OR... should a person just be satisfied with shooting very large heavy conicals only in the Whitworth rifle? I am very curious now as to what a round ball would do in that hexagonal rifling. I do know that conical bullets work in the Whitworth, and that hex shaped "bolts" are not necessarily needed nor desired for shooting accurately.

I realize that this is wildly careening off-topic on a tangent, so you can PM me with the information rather than "stink up this thread" with unrelated data.

Thanks in Advance!
WV_Hillbilly

 

[Stumpkiller]

Yep, more I think about it, Hunting with ML PRB, is just like Traditional (Self,longbow, Recurve) bow hunting, just get another 75 yards or so distance buffer so you dont have to be quite as sneaky.

I doubt you will find a traditional bow hunter to agree with you.

:m2c:

Oh, I don't know. I hunt with my muzzleloader as I do with my trad. bows and do consider it a 3 or 4X distance advantage, but otherwise hunt similarly. Still hunt or sit in a natural ground blind.

I've said before that you should hunt with a recurve or longbow for a year and afterwards the even the sidelock muzzleloaders seem like several giant and quantum leaps forward in killing technology.

The bit about being able to aim carefully and wait for a deer to move is nice. The motion of drawing a bow within 25 yards of a deer at eye level and then being able to hold at full draw no longer than five seconds does tip the scale mightily towards the muzzleloader . . . even in the rain.

 

[sidelock]

I turn down any shot --- at "BIG GAME" --I consider to be over 100yd. However I have taken turkeys at 125, groundhogs at 150 etc. I remember one WT that could have been a B&C I had been after for a week---I thought may be at 125 yd--- I passed. Boy did I have fun huntin that guy for a week and havin him in my sights. The hunt is the fun ---- not the killin. :m2c: :results:

 

[Tahquamenon]

I should have clarified a bit.

You are both correct, the hunting principles are pretty much the same. Still hunt, ambush.

I've hunted wooden traditional long bow and wooden arrow (Successful only once and I think it's was more because the deer had suicidal tendencies versus my close range bow skills). Long bow is tough hunting and a 30 yard max range on deer IMO. Perhaps a smoothbore and a PRB is similar to longbow (don't know as I don't have one yet).

The extended range of a rifled PRB offers a huge increase in effective opportunity over a long bow out to 100+ yards open sights. Opens up much more ambush territory. Thus I don't really see much comparison in similarity other than the still hunting method.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I am comfortable at 60 yards with a smoothbore lacking rear a rear sight.

I figure, in my hands, a longbow/recurve has half the effective range as a smoothbore m/l. I used to do pretty well on the 80 yard field archery target with my 60# longbow, but there is no way I'd try a deer at that range (trajectory of probably 25 feet in the air at the top of the arc, not a good idea in woods). I am much more limited by my concern over being seen drawing the bow and the arrow's path through branches than by pure accuracy. I can "cheat" and stand on the edge of my garden and put three consecutive cedar arrows in the lungs of my deer target 62 yards away. That is my point on range (focusing on the target the arrow's point appears exactly where the arrow will strike at that distance - the arrow point becomes the sight pin). In hunting conditions, I'm not good enough with range estimation to repeat that "trick"; and I do not use that sighting method on any live targets. When roving, yes, especally if the first round of beers is involved later on. But, it is fun to demonstrate to compound shooters. :haha:

It all boils down to practice. Ever heard of a "wand" or "clout" match with longbows? A six foot tall & "thumb diameter" willow shoot is stripped of bark and stuck in the ground at 100 yards! If you miss, your opponent(s) get to hit you with an open hand in the side of the head. Now that is incentive to improve. No wonder the English archers were feared.

So, for reason of comparison, let's say a bow has a 30 yard range, a musket 60 yards and a rifle 90 yards in deer territory, and you're in a ground blind where you can't move much. To get a deer within 30 yards from any direction for your bow means it has to step within a 706 square yard area (3.14 * r^2), vs. 2,826 sq yd for the musket, and 6,360 sq yd for the rifle (or 31,400 sq yd if you can shoot 200 yards with a conical!) Becomes pretty obvious where the advantage rests. You will have 9x the opportunities with a PRB rifle than with a bow just based on effective proximity (not figuring on the "spook" factor of drawing the bow).

So Tahquamenon you are correct. A PRB is a gimmie compared to a bow. :front:

(That's a finger breaker to type . . . What do Tahquamenon mean, anywho? From Hiawatha's poem?)

 

[Tahquamenon]

(That's a finger breaker to type . . . What do Tahquamenon mean, anywho? From Hiawatha's poem?)

No kidding on the keyboard workout. ::

Yep from Longfellow's "Hiawatha" of the Tahquamenon River, also from the Ojibwe (Chippewa) Indian meaning "This is a short route".

This area is my favorite place to haunt, hunt, fish and where I spend most of my free time. Been running around on, in and about the Tahquamenon since the early 60's and my family since the early 1880's. My favorite place in the world.

http://www.exploringthenorth.com/tahqua/tahqua.html

:thumbsup:

 

[oomcurt]

Man....does his handle bring back memories. Years back when I was a kid my folks took a trip to that area. I can recall taking that train and the boat ride. Well worth while!!! Lessee...that was over 50 some years ago... What I also thought was neat (don't know if any of those homes are still there) was a few folks had homes along that river, according to the guide..only way for them to get groceries, mail and the like was by boat. What a great way to live! IMO.

 

[Tahquamenon]

Man....does his handle bring back memories. Years back when I was a kid my folks took a trip to that area. I can recall taking that train and the boat ride. Well worth while!!! Lessee...that was over 50 some years ago... What I also thought was neat (don't know if any of those homes are still there) was a few folks had homes along that river, according to the guide..only way for them to get groceries, mail and the like was by boat. What a great way to live! IMO.

We are getting off topic, but at least you are not shooting PRB's at me.

That same railroad and boat tour is still in operation after 75 years. I know very very well, the same family that has been operating the Tahquamenon Boat Service (Riverboat "Hiawatha) and Narrow Gauge Railroad from Soo Junction. The Narrow Gauge Railroad (The Toonerville Trolley) built in the 1920's was initially for logging in the late 1800's and is built on an old logging trail from Soo Junction to the river.

In fact, just the other day I was on the "Hiawatha" visiting with the Captain after completion of a day's tour.

http://www.michiganrailroads.com/RRHX/Railroads/ToonervilleTrolley/ToonervilleRR.htm
http://www.exploringthenorth.com/toonerville/trolley.html
http://web.tampabay.rr.com/abrockw1/Mich/TahqFalls/TahqFalls.html

There are no homes along the upper portion of the Tahquamenon above the big falls that I am aware of, only seasonal cabins and most of which can only be accessed via river, including mine.

eace:

 

[TFoley]

It (the Whitworth) doesn't really handle shooting round balls well at all (or so I've always been told)--though curiously, I've never seen any information on that particular subject. I have always considered the Whitworth as my "Holy Grail" of muzzleloading rifles, yet for some strange reason, I find that I can't justify all the expense for what seems like just basically a different barrel and rifling--vs another typical 3 band 1853 Enfield rifle... should I be that concerned?

Well, I have a Whitworth, and shoot both the Lyman 535gr multi-groove cylindro-conicals in it, and the proper hexagonal bullet when I'm feeling flush. The Lyman bullet costs me zilch, and the real thing, a 595gr paper patched swaged beauty from the Polisar Bros in NM, about $1.40 each. So unless you really must have that kooky rifling, it's probably not worth it to you. Get the two-band naval rifle in .451 instead. A beauty to look at and a joy to handle. A good handler in the woods too, I'd bet.


Does anyone here have a Whitworth rifle that could tell me if they can shoot patched round balls through their gun AND if it is worth doing? OR... should a person just be satisfied with shooting very large heavy conicals only in the Whitworth rifle? I am very curious now as to what a round ball would do in that hexagonal rifling. I do know that conical bullets work in the Whitworth, and that hex shaped "bolts" are not necessarily needed nor desired for shooting accurately.

You CAN shoot round patched balls in the Whitworth, but it's a bit like driving trash to the town dump in your Ferrari, and arriving at the library instead. In MY Whitworth, shooting an unpatched ball at 50m failed to group smaller that about 20". Patching them was a total waste of time, as the bore is not circular, as you have already pointed out, and the windage blew the patch one way, and the bullet another. I couldn't say where the bullets went, though, as I never saw the result of one hitting. Remember that the Whitworth was not designed to shoot ball - the requirement placed on the competitors in the accuracy competiton was to make a rifle and rifling system to accurately shoot a bullet of around 535gr the longest distance with the most accuracy. By long distance we mean 1000-1500 yards, not a tenth of that distance - a reasonable range for a ball, patched or not.

The reason that cylindro-conicals work is that providing they are soft enough, they deform to the hexagonal interior of the barrel when they kick that 90-110gr kick up the arse. The whole point with the Whitworth was that because the proper bullet was the same shape as the rifling to begin with, it could be made as hard as it was possible to make it, and therefore could be driven as fast as was possible with the powder technology of the day. This goes some way to explaining the remarkable stories of long range accuracy, especially the one where General Sedgwick was concerned. Don't forget too, that the present replicas, including my own Parker-Hale, do not represent the real thing. The Whitworths that came ot the USA during the War of Northern agression were mostly second-grade weapons, and two-banders, so the P-H version is not a true replication, nor are any subsequent versions, all of which have three bands and quite skinny barrels by comparison with the real thing. The target-style Whitworths we see over here are a horse of a different colour, with very fine target sights of remarkable complexity, front and rear. They are not for sale for $1000 or so, I assure you. Between $5-8K might get you something fairly decent, as a look at the Track of the Wolf site will show you, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Whatever - enjoy your shooting.

tac :grey:

 

[TFoley]

Sorry - I forgot to post this link for you - http://sst.benchrest.com/energy.html

Just enter the weight of the projectile and the MV, and it gives you an instant readout.

Or you could do it like this...

Muzzle energy is calculated by the formula E=MV2/450400 for the imperial system and E=MV2/2000 for the metric system.

M is bullet mass in grains or grams (depending on the UOM, 0 < M < 2000.00 grains or 130 grams)

V is the bullet velocity in ft/sec (0 < V < 5000.00 fp/sec or 1500 m/sec)

The constant 450400 comes from 7000 (grains in a pound) multiplied by (g=32.17) by 2. 2000 comes from 1000 (grams in kg) multiplied by 2. Only first two decimal digits are used.

Take your pick.

tac :grey: