Knives, how sharp?

[Robert Egler]

A question on how sharp people keep their "working" knives, the one(s) you take hunting and fishing, used to cut bait and skin small game and just about everything else that you do with a knife.

For years I’ve put a shaving-sharp edge on all my knives. Then last year a friend said they’d cut better with a less-sharp edge, he said use a slightly gritty artificial stone rather than the soft and hard Arkansas stones I use to get the edge shaving sharp. (I’m actually using the stone that came with my old Air Force survival knife, it’s pretty smooth for an artificial stone, but not as smooth as an Arkansas stone.)

So I’ve been doing that this summer, and I find he was right. My main hunting/fishing knife now won’t shave the back of my arm, but it does cut bait, twine, etc better than it did before. His theory is that the slightly grittier stone puts a sort of micro serrated edge on the blade which works better for cutting. I’ll admit it doesn’t work quite as well for carving wood and other “shaving” type chores.

Any thoughts? After having knives as razor sharp as I could get them for many years it’s hard to purposely put a less sharp edge on them. It’s a bit of a trade off; the knife cuts better, but doesn’t work as well at “shaving” stuff.

How sharp do you keep your knives? Does anyone else buy into the micro serrated edge theory? :hmm:

(Until a few years ago when I started using more ”˜primitive’ knives hunting and fishing, I always carried my old Air Force issue survival knife. In my opinion it’s the best all around knife I’ve ever seen. This is it if you don't know what I'm talking about. I'm not always HC, but this is a bit too far non-HC, except for the 2nd half of the 20th century. :wink: http://www.outdoorpros.com/images/prod/5/Ontario-Knife-Company-6150-rw-9173-6324.jpg )

 

[Claude Mathis]

Then last year a friend said they’d cut better with a less-sharp edge, he said use a slightly gritty artificial stone rather than the soft and hard Arkansas stones I use to get the edge shaving sharp.

That rough, gritty edge may cut well ("saw") for the first couple of cuts, then it will dull faster than a properly sharpened edge.

Tell your friend, "less sharp" does not cut better than "more sharp". :wink:

 

[50cal.cliff]

I have a pocket knife that I have been carrying for years, (knock wood). It usually gets hit a few strokes on each side with a Diamond impregnated steel every week or two depending on what I am doing with it. It gets used and abused and generally is ready to do anything I want with just a few extra strokes on that diamond stone. this particular knife does not respond well to the old cheap wet stone though.
Alot of the edge has to do with use and the steel of the knife. I have seen some knives that wouldn't absolutely hold an edge I don't care how good a job you done. If you have one of those and wnat to use them by all means a rough stone does a good quick edge becasue it's not going to stay sharp long anyway!
Now if you want to talk about sharpening for a particlular use though! I have a skinner that when I start on animal such as a deer will that will split hair. I learned long ago when I had a trap line as a kid that a razor sharp knife will lay off the skin with little to no effort but, when they get dull and your having to put to much pressure on it you are going to cut throught the skin evrytime! :2

 

[BrownBear]

Then last year a friend said they’d cut better with a less-sharp edge, he said use a slightly gritty artificial stone rather than the soft and hard Arkansas stones I use to get the edge shaving sharp.

So I’ve been doing that this summer, and I find he was right. My main hunting/fishing knife now won’t shave the back of my arm, but it does cut bait, twine, etc better than it did before. His theory is that the slightly grittier stone puts a sort of micro serrated edge on the blade which works better for cutting. I’ll admit it doesn’t work quite as well for carving wood and other “shaving” type chores.

Any thoughts? After having knives as razor sharp as I could get them for many years it’s hard to purposely put a less sharp edge on them. It’s a bit of a trade off; the knife cuts better, but doesn’t work as well at “shaving” stuff.

I guess bottom line, different knives are ideal for different jobs. I've tested and used the rough edge theory versus smooth edge. My problem is that the rough edge might cut "better" for a few strokes, but it goes south fast.

What's really happening I think, is that the rough edge is working kinda like serrations. That's okay as long as they stay sharp, but once they fill with stuff or dull enough to reveal the dull blade beneath, they're one step south of useless.

The fishing industry has long ago learned that serrated blade like Spyderco are about the best thing short of an axe for cutting large poly line. But when they dull they throw them overboard- often once or twice a day when rigging gear. And you won't see them being used for cutting bait. The fishermen mostly use large Russell Dexter stainless butcher knives (the white handled kind) for bait cutting, along with a steel for quick sharpening. For recreational bait cutting, I find that a larger blade works better than a short one unless I'm making pretty small baits and doing some fancy cutting on them.

Other than situations when a serrated knife works better, I'm a razor-sharp kinda guy. Even serrated knives are worthless when they're dull because they're such a bugger to resharpen.

Whether serrated or smooth, in my experience an old saw from my grandpap fits pretty well:

"A dull knife is not a knife."

 

[paulvallandigham]

There are knives, and saws, and some people think that putting saw teeth, no matter how microscopic, on a knife edge makes it " Cut Better ". Well, saws do have their place, and some advantages. They have kerf, which reduces drag on the blade when a saw cuts. They have raker teeth to remove the cuttings made by the saw teeth.

But a saw is NOT a knife. A knife is a simple wedge, with an extremely sharp edge. Its designed to split cell fibers, and not shovel them out of the way like a saw will. A sharp knife edge leaves a thin cut where it has split flesh or fiber. There are no shavings or wood chips, or dust, as you get with a saw. I do see people using even sharp knives as if they were a saw, cutting back and forth, when that will only warp and bend the edge, put pressure on the edge that makes it tear and break, and then dull. Used properly, the blade of a sharp knife cuts in one direction, the knife is lifted and repositioned for the next cut. Most Western knives cut on the rearward stroke. Japanese knives are sometimes designed to cut on the forward stroke. Japanese saws, to the contrary, are almost always designed to cut on the pull stroke, while Western saws cut on the push stroke.

When you leave a knife edge " rough" you leave a microscopic saw blade, that not only does not last very long, but dulls so quickly because it allows materials to grab pieces of the edge, and tear out bigger chunks, going deeper into the knife edge. It takes a much greater effort to bring that knife edge BACK than if the edge had been created and maintained properly in the first place.

Because knife edges are thin, they are easily bent. When working around bones, its important to stop periodically and straight the edges. Otherwise, you risk breaking the edge, and tearing the metal away. This will lead to dulling the edge again. A mirror smooth piece of steel can be used as a strop to straighten the edge. The side of a second knife, the shank of a screwdriver, the edge of a steel countertop can all be " drafted " for this purpose when working on cutting meat.

I am a razor edge guy, if you could not already guess. I don't understand the popularity of these saw tooth " knives" being sold today.

Obviously, we don't teach our children about tools these days, and they fall victims to all the advertising hype, and get less than good information off the TV, and movies. Those serrated knife blades look so much more " dangerous " in an action movie than the blade on a razor sharp knife.

The only razor sharp blades that Hollywood will allow in movies are the Samurai swords, as if the only people who can make a sharp knife are Japanese! 20 years ago, we had " Crocodile Dundee" with his razor sharp, oversized, Bowie Knife, suggesting once again that you have to have a LARGE knife for it to be razor sharp- beyond the possession of mere mortals.

If you would have a sharp knife, get a book titled " The Razor Edge Book of Sharpening ", by John Juranitch. Its still the best book out that explains what " sharp " means, and how to do it. He also tells how, and why to maintain the edge.

:hmm: :thumbsup:

 

[Bountyhunter]

The most dangerous tool you can use is a dull knife, as it will slip and cut you.

 

[LRB]

Good post Paul.

 

[THOM]

" A dull blade is a dangerous blade;
a sharp blade is a blessing "... :thumbsup:

 

[Roy]

I am also a really sharp knife fan. I really don't have much use for one that you can not put a shaving edge on. The only thing that I really found a serrated knife blade good for is... is... um... fresh bread :haha: :v

 

[Robert Egler]

ok, ya all convinced me. I'm going back to sharpening my knives razor sharp. :hatsoff:

 

[mingo]

My team medic in VN had a 8 inch Randall #1
that he spent long hours sharpening and honing.
I never saw in my life a sharper instrument.
It was scary to handle.
Had a kind of wedge shaped edge.

He had a Buck folder, same-same.

A Montagnard borrowed the Randall one night to cut some vines.
He knocked a really big nick in it.
Kinda funny at the time.

 

[paulvallandigham]

YOu don't use a razor blade to whack vines, or branches, or even bamboo, for that matter. The approach bevel for a razor will be 20 degrees or less, while the knives used for cutting vines, and branches is better a 30-45 degrees, depending on the thickness of the wood to be cut. A machete works well with a 30-35 degree bevel on it. But, if you are doing heavy work, you are better off with that 45 degree bevel. Usually those blades for machetes are not hardened or tempered, making them relatively easy to " sharpen " with a simple file.

I used to put a 30 degree bevel on the round and point of the machete, and a 45 degree bevel along the straight edge, where most of the " whacking " will occur. The finer bevel allowed a more delicate edge to use to slice open things, including fish, and flesh.

 

[54mountain]

I worked in a beef packing plant for 12years when I was younger and am a firm believer that there ain't no such thing as a to sharp Knife,

We were issued the white handled Dexter, knifes and you learned early on that if it didn't shave it wasn't sharp.

I still have my old steel and double sided arkansas stone and you can shave with every Knife in the house. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: I also agree with Paul that you need a differant edge for differant jobs. (the wider the angle the tougher the edge)

 

[paulvallandigham]

We easily talk about owning a " Set of Swcrewdrivers", but seem to have more trouble dealing with the idea that we also need a " Set of knives", and not just flat wear to serve many people at the same table. We own various sized screwdrivers because there are different sized screws, with different sized screw slots.

The same goes for guns, and knives. There is no ONE knife to do it all. With a blade of at least 5 inches, you do have the luxury of being able to put 2 or 3 different bevels on the blade to help you do a multitude of tasks better.

I once put a razor edge on the belly( round) of the blade of a knife, a strong 45 degree bevel from the round to the point, and a 30 degree bevel along the straight edge, so that the man could gut fish, open cans :youcrazy: :shocked2: :cursing: , and whittle campfire sticks, respectively with the separate bevels. I nearly begged him NOT TO USE THE knife to open cans, but he was a Korean War Vet, had lived through that awful winter march from the Chosen Reservoir, and had made do with a knife to open rations in cans to survive. He admitted it was a bad habit, and not very nice to do to a knife, but that is what he wanted.

When he got back from his fishing trip, he was like a little kid who won the grand prize at the candy store. He was very happy with his knife. It did everything he wanted to do with the knife effortlessly, and he just had to ask me to describe once again what I did to the edges of that blade! He wanted to also know how I figured out what were the best angles for each of the bevels.

The work defines the angle to be used, just as the size of the screw, and screwslot decided which screwdriver you use.

 

[Charles D. Prokopp]

As a blade smith, I think I can speak with a little authority here. All of my knives are "scary sharp", not only will they shave, but they can literally split a hair. It takes rather a bit of work to get that edge, using techniques dreamed up by Tai Goo (with some input from your humble). You'll rarely find a mirror polish on my knives, but the edge bevels have been hand-ground and -burnished to a mirror-like surface. Looks pretty cool. At a forging session one time, Tai gently pressed, without sawing, a blade's edge through a book. Not only was the book cut in two, but he went right through the plastic cutting board under it, too! :shocked2: