Land Pattern 1740 Musket from Loyalist Arms, Halifax, CAN.

[Ike Godsey]

Howdy!!

After a couple of years fighting my cancer and some other things, I have enough time to start up and resattle my reenactment gear for FIW.

I do remember some years ago there have been many of you guys qualified as TOP NOTCH specialist on FIW and AWI topics.

As I said back then, I really went into it an finally made it to order a LLP 1740 version in Halifax, Canada at the Loyalist Arms Co. – VERY friendly people!! They sell India made firelocks in a very fine quality!
Of course the venthile is not drilled and the lock ships seperatly but once unwrapped and assambled, the gun works flawless. They also put the makers name and year on my lock – all you have to do is ask them and tell them what you want to have.

I know some of you do not like the India made firelocks do to ist poor quality.
But let me tell you, Loyalist Arms does sell VERY GOOD quality muskets!
The fit steel/wood is very good, the india teak stock is oiled and they asked you if you whish it stained and oild or just oiled.

Here are some pics of the gu I received. Those pics are made as the musket came „out oft he box“ but I put the lock in it – it fits snugg.

Barrel ist 46“ .77 cal.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Ah, a Dublin Castle from the Irish Establishment. And the pan is unbridled as befits an early land pattern. Not to mention you have the wooden ram rod although I would expect to see the tip tapered to be enlarged.

I too have the Dublin Castle (dated 1728 on the lock) and I have made to modification to use the steel ram rod. Early on, the wooden ram rod was preferred as the iron ram rods were soft and would easily bend when the fouling built up a bit and made loading difficult. You can barely see the taper on my wooden ram rod.

Yes, I think my Loyalist Arms is a well built "firelock" and well suited for my use as a Grenadier during the French and Indian War.

I have the Long Land Pattern of 1732 (which probably wouldn't have been issued to a front line unit, but I get away with it) and an officer's or NCO's firelock. Both are from Loyalist Arms. The Sergent's firelock is 20 gauge while it should be closer to 16 gauge.

 

[Ike Godsey]

Ah, a Dublin Castle from the Irish Establishment. And the pan is unbridled as befits an early land pattern. Not to mention you have the wooden ram rod although I would expect to see the tip tapered to be enlarged.

Look close
The pan has a bridle to the frizzen.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I needed to take a better look at your lock rather than just the wooden rammer and the plain tip without a brass nose cap. Still a good representation of a King's Musket.

 

[FlinterNick]

Loyalist Arms does the best for an Indian made Brown Bess. While I don’t own one or desire to, they look pretty good.

The only thing I would do is put a little more satin in the stock and steel finishes.

Originals were not reflectively polished, because they didn’t want the sun light reflecting off the lock or barrel. A matte or satin is what they went after, otherwise known as armory bright. Between number 3 and 4 finish.

Nice piece.

 

[FlinterNick]

Ah, a Dublin Castle from the Irish Establishment. And the pan is unbridled as befits an early land pattern. Not to mention you have the wooden ram rod although I would expect to see the tip tapered to be enlarged.

I too have the Dublin Castle (dated 1728 on the lock) and I have made to modification to use the steel ram rod. Early on, the wooden ram rod was preferred as the iron ram rods were soft and would easily bend when the fouling built up a bit and made loading difficult. You can barely see the taper on my wooden ram rod.

Yes, I think my Loyalist Arms is a well built "firelock" and well suited for my use as a Grenadier during the French and Indian War.

I have the Long Land Pattern of 1732 (which probably wouldn't have been issued to a front line unit, but I get away with it) and an officer's or NCO's firelock. Both are from Loyalist Arms. The Sergent's firelock is 20 gauge while it should be closer to 16 gauge.View attachment 54633

The Indian made Bess’s just never look right to me. The lock’s are too chunky and the stocks ought to be more slender.

 

[FlinterNick]

Howdy!!

After a couple of years fighting my cancer and some other things, I have enough time to start up and resattle my reenactment gear for FIW.

I do remember some years ago there have been many of you guys qualified as TOP NOTCH specialist on FIW and AWI topics.

As I said back then, I really went into it an finally made it to order a LLP 1740 version in Halifax, Canada at the Loyalist Arms Co. – VERY friendly people!! They sell India made firelocks in a very fine quality!
Of course the venthile is not drilled and the lock ships seperatly but once unwrapped and assambled, the gun works flawless. They also put the makers name and year on my lock – all you have to do is ask them and tell them what you want to have.

I know some of you do not like the India made firelocks do to ist poor quality.
But let me tell you, Loyalist Arms does sell VERY GOOD quality muskets!
The fit steel/wood is very good, the india teak stock is oiled and they asked you if you whish it stained and oild or just oiled.

Here are some pics of the gu I received. Those pics are made as the musket came „out oft he box“ but I put the lock in it – it fits snugg.

Barrel ist 46“ .77 cal.

Wow that tang carving is huge, originals were a little flatter and slender with more tapering towards the barrel.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Here is a custom made example for comparison. It is an upgraded version of the pattern 1730. Historically correct right down to the way the lock is inlet.

dave

 

[FlinterNick]

Hi,
Here is a custom made example for comparison. It is an upgraded version of the pattern 1730. Historically correct right down to the way the lock is inlet.

dave

As always Dave, you produce the masterpiece !

Have you ever retempered the Indian Made Springs ? If so, when do you draw back, what color? I noticed that for the Indian made springs, the steel isn’t the same and might work a little better with a more purple temper.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Nick,
Yes, I have completely reworked quite a few India-made locks. I hate the job and I don't do that work any more but I can turn them into decent locks. I always treat the steel alloys as largely unknown and potentially variable. However, the springs are best tempered between 700 and 750 degrees for 1 hour. You might be able to cut the time to 30 minutes but I always give springs the full heat soak time. You cannot adjust how strongly a spring works by changing temper below the temperature that actually allows the spring to take a set when compressed. That temp is often above 800 degrees depending on the alloy. The only way to adjust the strength of a spring is by making it thicker or thinner not by tempering. I try to shoot for about 48-50 Rockwell hardness. Unless the alloy has 40 points of carbon or less, a purple temper (520-540 degrees) likely will result in a broken spring.

dave

 

[rudy43norvelle]

I have a 1728 from Loyalist Arms. It is the version that has the barrel cut down as was sometimes done by Rogers Rangers. I didn't have too much trouble getting it here to California from Canada. The muskets from Loyalist Arms are quite well done and I just may order another one.

 

[Ike Godsey]

The Indian made Bess’s just never look right to me. The lock’s are too chunky and the stocks ought to be more slender.

Wow that tang carving is huge, originals were a little flatter and slender with more tapering towards the barrel.

I can only shake my head.
Sorry to say this, but it is really astoning - after all those years that those india made muskets are available - how many people still picking on them - there is too much wood here and there and the Locks are not right and so on...

On the other hand most of them carry a Pedersoli Bess for FWI oder AWI which is as far away from any original SLP or LLP as a Pirateship from a Space Shuttle.

These are my current Rocklocks - two of them are made in India, one is a reworked Pedersoli, one is a ???made Tulle 1734 - and I like three of the - the far left one is a piece of junk. ANd yes she is from India. Also there it depends on the maker, same as with Italian or Spanish guns...

 

[Poguetx]

I have the doglock blunderbus from Loyalist, and it sparks very reliably. But I hate the 20 pound trigger pull. One of these days I'll see if I can lighten it up some, but for now it's mainly for a 4th of July blast!

 

[Rudyard]

I ' Roll my own 'But do know the Loyalist Arms work ethos .India guns can be frightfull but they where cheap & cheerfull and I've worked them up to be desirable guns & all of them Stood UK proof . & on the principal of " The cobblers kids is poorest shod", My own F&I musket was a much modified' Colonels purchase' got up of three wrecks..
. Overall knowing what the actual workmen have to work with ide say they do very well in the main. Whatever you pay its the merchant Indian middle man who makes out best, Not the workmen . "Youth was cheap wherefore we sold it ' ' Gold was good we hoped to hold it , And today we know the fullness of our gains ", an apt line from Kiplings ' Christmas in India '

 

[Rudyard]

This E gajet says I've over run my time idiotic notion I've sent it anyway It should include a piece about Devalli & the customs of Xmas time India .Urchins bombing you with balloons of coloured water Adults throwing die about & villagers pelting passing trains with mud . Rudyard

 

[Artificer]

Look close
The pan has a bridle to the frizzen.

WELCOME BACK to the forum, Ike!!! It is so good to see you posting again.

OK, I realize most folks don't get into the minutia that I do on 18th century British Muskets, but the big difference between a P1730 Musket and what makes this a P 1740 Musket is the Pan Bridle added to the lock. They also normally had at least one of two more modifications done to them.

1. Improved/more robust trigger guard that was kept that way from the P1742 to the end of the 18th century. The P1730 trigger guard was a bit more elegant and slender, but it did not hold up to usage in the field.

2. The lock "aprons" (carving around the lock) could have been changed from the style shown on Ike's and Dave Person's muskets to a much simpler beavertail around the tang and simpler carving around the lock and side plate. This change did not happen completely until the P 1742 Musket.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Hi Nick,
Yes, I have completely reworked quite a few India-made locks. I hate the job and I don't do that work any more but I can turn them into decent locks. I always treat the steel alloys as largely unknown and potentially variable. However, the springs are best tempered between 700 and 750 degrees for 1 hour. You might be able to cut the time to 30 minutes but I always give springs the full heat soak time. You cannot adjust how strongly a spring works by changing temper below the temperature that actually allows the spring to take a set when compressed. That temp is often above 800 degrees depending on the alloy. The only way to adjust the strength of a spring is by making it thicker or thinner not by tempering. I try to shoot for about 48-50 Rockwell hardness. Unless the alloy has 40 points of carbon or less, a purple temper (520-540 degrees) likely will result in a broken spring.

dave

Dave,

Did you find you normally had to temper the Springs that way and if so, did you do it to all three, I.E. the mainspring, sear spring and feather/frizzen spring?

Oh, also, did you normally as a matter of course do your special "long in the heat treat oven" case hardening on all the lock parts? I have to sheepishly admit I lost what you wrote on how to do that when I got a new computer recently.

Gus

 

[Ike Godsey]

WELCOME BACK to the forum, Ike!!! It is so good to see you posting again.

OK, I realize most folks don't get into the minutia that I do on 18th century British Muskets, but the big difference between a P1730 Musket and what makes this a P 1740 Musket is the Pan Bridle added to the lock. They also normally had at least one of two more modifications done to them.

1. Improved/more robust trigger guard that was kept that way from the P1742 to the end of the 18th century. The P1730 trigger guard was a bit more elegant and slender, but it did not hold up to usage in the field.

2. The lock "aprons" (carving around the lock) could have been changed from the style shown on Ike's and Dave Person's muskets to a much simpler beavertail around the tang and simpler carving around the lock and side plate. This change did not happen completely until the P 1742 Musket.

Gus

Well said Gus.

I must admit, I have two more of these India LLPs – that makes three all together.
One is the one in my first post here in his thread.


The second one is really a piece of trash, - it was the first one I bought years ago, has a German proof, but is covered in a deeply brown varnish.
It turns out, after I removed the varnish, which took me four days(!!), the stock is about 40% woodfiller – so I stored it in my shop to maybe make something out of the parts (a COS Musket or so) when I do have the chance to get my hands on good a stock…

The third one is just on the way to my house. I found her on a website of a German dealer.
From what I can tell so far, the LLP has a single bridled lock (1730) and the stock is oiled just as the LLP from Loyalist Arms.
I bought it for very small money and it is already proofed by the German Proofhouse – so it is safe for both, blanks and live fireing.

I have some (rather poor) pics of the later one, and I gladly share them with you:

I will post some better picture, when I have it in my hands.

But as to what I can tell from those poor pics, ist got a wooden rammer, the lock is banana shaped and single bridled, aprons around the lock are looking a bit smaller than the ones on the Loyalist Arms LLP – but again, I can’t really tell without seeing the Bess...


EDIT:

I think you must understand, here in Germany, we do not have much things to choose from when it comes to guns.
We do not have TRS and/or TOW and if we try to order, they do not take PayPal plus the fact that gun parts could not be shipped outside US.

So the only options we have is either the (what ever it is) from Pedersoli, or any India made gun.
So if you like to have a 46" full size LLP - India made guns are your only choise.

I have been at the proofhouse to get the official test and proof on one of those India muskets that I have ordered for my brother. He and his men are reenacting the Ansbach-Bayreuth Troop of soldiers, send over to the AWI to fight for the British King.

Bad thing - since FEB this year, we have a new, stronger gun law in Germany. This also means new rules for the gun proof.

What they did was measureing the barrel, then they put 300 grain FF powder plus 2 patched round balls into the barrel and fired it from the musket 5 times!
They measured after each shot. Well the musket made it. Proofstamps on it tells you it is considered "Safe to shoot".
No cracks in the stock, no harms to the barrel – no harms to the breech plug - everything is fine.

 

[Stantheman86]

I tried getting Loyalist to gave a .65 3-Band Enfield P59 made for me and they said the Indian gunmaker they use won't do it. I'm like if you offered those as catalog items you'd sell quite a few.

They do offer a .65 Carbine.

 

[Eterry]

Howdy!!

After a couple of years fighting my cancer and some other things, I have enough time to start up and resattle my reenactment gear for FIW.

I do remember some years ago there have been many of you guys qualified as TOP NOTCH specialist on FIW and AWI topics.

As I said back then, I really went into it an finally made it to order a LLP 1740 version in Halifax, Canada at the Loyalist Arms Co. – VERY friendly people!! They sell India made firelocks in a very fine quality!
Of course the venthile is not drilled and the lock ships seperatly but once unwrapped and assambled, the gun works flawless. They also put the makers name and year on my lock – all you have to do is ask them and tell them what you want to have.

I know some of you do not like the India made firelocks do to ist poor quality.
But let me tell you, Loyalist Arms does sell VERY GOOD quality muskets!
The fit steel/wood is very good, the india teak stock is oiled and they asked you if you whish it stained and oild or just oiled.

Here are some pics of the gu I received. Those pics are made as the musket came „out oft he box“ but I put the lock in it – it fits snugg.

Barrel ist 46“ .77 cal.

Welcome back to the forum. Is the stock on your new firelock oiled, or stained?
Thanks.