lead flint wraps

[CoyoteJoe]

Here is another downside to using lead for flint wraps. A friend brought me this flint cock with the top of the jaw screw twisted off. It originally had a hole for a rod to tighten it down. In trying to get it tight enough to hold with a lead wrap he had twisted the top off. He then cut a screwdriver slot and tried to remove it in that way but with no luck. My first thought was to drill the screw for an EZ-out but then realized that since I had it set up for drilling in the mill I could just go with a larger end mill and remove the whole top of the screw. After doing that I removed the remaining screw with finger pressure only.
Here is the cock set up with a small end mill to drill for an EZ-out.

And here it is after milling off the top of the screw and popping off the jaw. The owner had already obtained a new jaw screw so he is now back in business.

 

[roundball]

Thanks for posting this....its a perfect example of what happens when someone implements mis-information being spread around, advocating the use of lead flint wraps in civilian size traditional sporting arms. Hopefully it'll help some newbies pause and re-evaluate what they're reading and where they're reading it...

 

[Ken Rummer]

What kind of problems are caused by a lead flint wrap but not by leather?

I like lead because I can now throw the whole lock into the soapy water when I clean it. When I had a leather wrap I felt I needed to remove the leather so it did not get wet. The lead wrap has made cleanup easier for me and I have not noticed a problem yet. What frustrating possibilities lie ahead if I continue?

 

[rabjr]

A nice piece of proccessed Elk leather and that guy would be shooting right now.

 

[RJR]

KV, Why can't you throw your whole lock in soapy water just because of the leather? I've been doing it for the last year and a half and I'm still on the same piece of leather, no ill effects. Actually seems to hold the flint better. I wet my leather with spit when I change flints, just snug it up a little when the leather dries.

Rick

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I agree, wet leather molds to the flint and to the cock jaws and stays tight. I have tried lead and find if I don't re-tighten it frequently I loose my flint. Lead is non-elastic and as it is battered by the impact of flint on frizzen it can't spring back.

 

What kind of problems are caused by a lead flint wrap but not by leather?

Lead won't compress the way leather does, so you have to tighten the screw much harder than you would with leather to get it to hold the flint.

Some say that lead adds too much weight to the cock (hammer) and it's not good for the lock.

At least one lock maker (Chambers?) will not warranty his locks if you use lead. He must have a good reason?

 

[DrLaw]

I hammered down a Speer round ball, cut the excess lead off, re-tighted after about five shots and the flint did not move, the lead has held to the flint and the hammer, and I get more reliable ignition than I had with leather, which is what I started with.

So, I guess it is all in the way you do it, which is about the size of it with Flintlocks, eh?

The Doc is out now. :v

 

[Ron_T.]

No disrespect intended, but I agree with DrLaw. I also use lead rather than leather and have found it to hold the flints solidly.

I use the soft lead from some old 146 grain .38 caliber wadcutters which I no longer shoot. I cut the "skirt" off the wadcutter, hold the skirt under hot, running water to melt the lubrication off the bullet's grooves, then dry the skirt and pound the lead out fairly thin, then cut it into the same shape and size as the holders on my rifle's hammer.

At that point, the pieces of lead weigh almost nothing and I can't believe they'd add any serious impact to the hammer fall.

I tightened the holders down on the lead (which is on either side of the flint) fairly solidly... then snug it up after 5 shots and check it after 10 shots, but at that point, it is usuallly still very tight since the holders in my rifle have grooves in them which impress the lead and insure the lead holds the flint solidly.

I use "sufficient" pressure when tightening the screw to insure the lead is solidly tightened down on the flint and I re-check the screw's tightness from time-to-time while shooting. As a result, I've never had the lead come loose.

It appears to me that the person in question used a bit too much "muscle" on the screw... since it would obviously take quite a bit of pressure to TWIST OFF an iron screw the thickness of the one in question.

I began using lead because I didn't have a proper piece of leather that would work. However, at this point, I intend to continue using the lead because it does a fine job of holding the flint without any movement or "give".


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

 

[LaBonte]

the pieces of lead weigh almost nothing and I can't believe they'd add any serious impact to the hammer fall.

It's not just the weight - it's also partly the "cushioning" effect that leather gives rather than lead.
A PROPERLY set up flint lock will fire just as fine with a leather wrap as with a lead one. IMO (FWIW I've been shooting flinters since 1962 and have built more than just a few locks - some from scratch) using lead is something of a "shade tree" mechanic fix for an underlying problem such as a weak mainspring, or lack of proper geometry, a lack of proper balance between the mainspring and the frizzen spring - the latter two are major problems with many of today's locks. If you ever get the chance to examine/use a high quality lock from the late flint period such as a Manton as I have and you'll know what I mean........

 

[DrLaw]

Well, for one, I think it is something that many, many helpful people have already said on this forum. Flintlocks are peculiar beasts and it becomes a matter of what works for some does not work for others.

While I respect somebody who has been shooting for a long time compared to others, I would hope those persons would not think that somebody doing something different that works for them is 'wrong' for doing it that way.

This just boils down to a matter of preference as opposed to the just plain wrong (like using Pyrodex in a flinter! :haha: )

The Doc is out now. :v

PS, and if you think I am going to quote Rodney King here, you are nuts! :youcrazy:

 

[looselystrung]

Thanks for posting this....its a perfect example of what happens when someone implements mis-information being spread around, advocating the use of lead flint wraps in civilian size traditional sporting arms. Hopefully it'll help some newbies pause and re-evaluate what they're reading and where they're reading it...

Not no be a smart a_ _ here or rub the wrong way especially my first post...I am a newbie to BP and just started shooting a T/C .50 Hawken flintlock Getting a lot of info here when I came accross this:

4. Wrap your flints with lead, not leather. Leather tends to act as a shock absorber, and the flint will rebound or bounce off the face of the frizzen just at the time it is cutting into the steel and starting to shear off bits of steel at the high temperature required to ignite the priming powder below. Instead, when the flint rebounds, it tears bits of steel off that are then caught on the edge of the flint. The second repeat hit will produce a few sparks that may ignite the prime.
Posted by "Claude" the administrator in the Articles section under "Flintlocks and how to shoot them" by Paul Valladigham

The unwanted bouncing back or rebound of the flint seemed to make a lot of sense to me even though my flint is currently leather wrapped...Just looking to improve gun performance/reliability of spark? Have others here given this lead wrap thing a serious try with good results? Dan

 

[Sunkmanitu Tanka]

I have had a lot off good info here on the site too. And I am gratefull for it! :thumbsup:
I also tended to be confused sometimes because oftentimes different people advocate different materials, lubes, and like here, different flint wraps ... lead or leather ... It learned me that you have to pick out and try what you like and that you have to experiment. Finaly you will find out what your gun really likes ... their females remember? :grin:
Since I started to use a flintlock, I held a diary of the gun (girls do that to don't they! :hmm: ) I made a list in Excell and noted the number of shots I got out of each flint I used. I used leather and lead wraps. It seemed (when I compared notes afterwards) that the (English Tom Fuller) flints wrapped in lead had more shots in them than the ones I shot wrapped in leather. The use of leather is somewhat easier in the handling of your flint, but hey this might just be what my gun likes? I use a Pedersoli Frontier long rifle in *45 with round ball, 56 grains of Swiss nr.2 (3f) and Ballistol lubed 020 patches... :2
Have lots of fun with the lifelong flintlock experience! :v

 

[looselystrung]

have to experiment. Finaly you will find out what your gun really likes ... their females remember? :grin:
Since I started to use a flintlock, I held a diary of the gun (girls do that to don't they!

..Geez..I am married 23 years with a daughter and just when I think I have them figured out...they change! :haha: ..Hopefully it will take less time to learn what she likes..the gun that is.I'm also sure the hawken will let me experiment more freely in some respects :wink: Great advice to keep a log..I do use British flints with leather currently and had the frizzen replaced to a better high carbon steel...Thanks for kind words..Dan :hatsoff:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Lead produces more sparks, and hotter sparks for me, than when I use leather to wrap the flint. I used leather for years before my late friend, Don Latter convinced me to try lead wraps. I have tried both lead and leather wraps since on a newer flintlock gun I now own, and found the same to be true with that gun.

My article lays out the simple test to do to see the difference in sparks. There are people here who refuse to do the test correctly, and then condemn me for my article's conclusions. There are others who point out that a well-known lock maker states that his life-time warranty is voided if a lead wrap is used on his locks. A frizzen costs less than $15.00, and a Cock cost less than $20.00 from this maker. If a cock or frizzen broke, it would not be from adding a few more grains of weight to the cock when using lead rather than leather as a wrap. I doubt his lawyer would advise him to go to court to fight a lawsuit, raising his Warranty defense, considering the cost of the lawyer's time, vs the actual cost of replacing the broken part.

I have seen many broken hammers over my life time. Most were percussion hammers, made of low grade steel. Others were old flintlock cocks made of iron. All I have been able to examine in good light indicate that the metal was brittle, meaning that it was hardened, but not tempered correctly. In one case, there was an obvious void in the metal in addition to it being brittle, that contributed to it breaking. I have not seen any modern cast steel hammers or cocks broken, and certainly none broken as the result of using a lead wrap.

So, I think the Warranty "Scare" ( go away language to stop people from even talking to a lawyer) is silly. Grown men should be able to ignor it with a good laugh.


I have discussed this with men who know this man personally, and they tell me they have also talked to him about that language, and have encouraged him to take it off his website, and out of his "brochures". These are experienced gun makers in their own rights, who know far more about steels than I do. They are also shooters, and know their guns and locks. They wrap their flints in lead, too. :thumbsup:

 

[MSW]

the following is a message i wrote to Paul some time ago. sorry if it's a tad longwinded.

the readers' digest version:
(a) lead wraps don't add all that much to the cock/flint weight, so i don't see what all the fuss is about. and
(b) it works for me, so i'll use it, but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to do it that way.


Paul-

Thanks for getting back to me so soon. My computer, my work schedule, and the goings- on at our farm haven't exactly been in the same good place, so please forgive my tardy response.

I took a .36 Hornady (i.e. pure lead, or a reasonably pure lead) roundball and mashed it as flat as it would go in my vice, then a whacked it a few times with a finish hammer to get it flatter and smooth out the wierd looking grooves the vice face put in the ball. It measured about 1/32 to 3/64 of an inch thick. Then i put it around the flint in my T/C Renegade, tightened down the screw and fired the lock three times with nothing in the pan. This lock has a hole through the cockscrew, so you can put a pin or allen wrench through it and get better leverage than you can with a screwdriver, and i put my cocktightening tool (a bit of coathanger wire) through the hole and 'reefed it down.' Got another three quarters of a turn, and, unlike setting a flint in leather, the flint didn't move (always a pain in the neck before i tried your suggestion).

The spark, which was initially getting a bit anemic, perked right up: a nice shower of sparks, right into the pan, with an old and beat up flint which i neglected to knap, and an even older and more beat up frizzen (actually, it's a twenty year old Lyman... they're cheaper than T/C and they do interchange ... frugal is good).

way cool!

the leather weighed about fourteen or fifteen grains, and the lead ball weighs about (if i remember right) about 65
grains ... oh, darn, now i'm curious... got my scale out...

lead ball mashed, 66.2 gr
" " not mashed 66.7 gr
leather 13.2 gr.

now i trimmed away about a third of the lead from the jaws of the cock, so i would estimate that i've got about forty four or so grains of wrap on the flint

then, just 'cause i have them handy, i got my bag of 3/4 inch French Amber flints, and i found:

flint #1 52.8
flint #2 46.5
flint #3 61.8
flint #4 49.2
flint #5 67.2
flint #6 41.3
flint #7 62.2
flint #8 41.2
flint #9 48.0
flint #10 59.9
flint #11 49.8

so, from a high of 67.2 grains to a low of 41.2 grains, i might get a gain in weight of as much as 26 grains going from one flint to the next, and the change might be even more dramatic considering that i'm a congenital cheapskate, and i've beaten on the flint pretty good and knapped it a few times before i grudgingly set a new one in the cock.

so, leather (13.2 grains) and flint (heavy) at 67.2 grains gets me 80.4 total weight in the cock. or lead wrap at about 44 grains and light flint at 41.2 grains gets me 85.1 grains hitting the frizzen: a difference of 4.7 grains.

you could make at least a colorable arguement that the weight difference of the flints runs pretty close to the weight difference in going from leather to lead. additionally, the proportion of the mass of the lead/flint combination to that of the cock, jaw and screw compared to the proportional mass of the leather/flint combination to that of the cock, jaw and screw is, i think, so close as to be de minimus. (i've been up all night at the paper mill where i work, so i'm not up for taking the lock apart and weighing these pieces, but i'd be willing to be that thye run pretty close to the capacity of my little 500 grain scale).


so, thanks for the words of encouragement, and (having been duly encouraged) i tried your method and it works better than what i was doing before, and i agree that there doesn't seem any logical reason to worry about the strength of the cock not being up to the job .

Thanks again!

Matt Williams

 

[Zonie]

Just my opinion but, twisting off the cock screw may or may not have anything to do with using a lead wrap for the flint.

The screw could have just as easily been twisted off if the flint was held with leather or nothing at all.

Admittedly, if the lead wrap was too thick it would need to have some extra pressure applied to it. I guess that should serve as a warning to others who choose to use lead that it needs to be fairly thin.

This story should be, IMO, more about the need to be careful when installing, adjusting or removing a flint from the cocks jaws.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Good observation. I did try lead in the jaws of my Bess and it was a cast iron b!+@# to get the flint held tight. May have been my lead was worked too thin or was too hard.

Been many, many years since I've used anything but leather. 20 or so, in fact.

 

[hanshi]

I've always used leather. Lead was tried and tested (only in one gun, though) thoroughly and no difference in reliability was manifested. Leather has always worked well. I'm guessing the slight weight increase of a lead wrapped hammer is responsible for any benefits as far as sparking goes. Frizzens are cheap but I wouldn't want any damage to the one on my gun. Is greater & faster damage to the frizzen part and parcel to using lead? Just curious as I have no iron in this fire.

 

[LaBonte]

I am a newbie to BP and just started shooting a T/C .50 Hawken flintlock Getting a lot of info here when I came accross this:

4. Wrap your flints with lead, not leather. Leather tends to act as a shock absorber, and the flint will rebound or bounce off the face of the frizzen just at the time it is cutting into the steel and starting to shear off bits of steel at the high temperature required to ignite the priming powder below. Instead, when the flint rebounds, it tears bits of steel off that are then caught on the edge of the flint. The second repeat hit will produce a few sparks that may ignite the prime.
Posted by "Claude" the administrator in the Articles section under "Flintlocks and how to shoot them" by Paul Valladigham

The unwanted bouncing back or rebound of the flint seemed to make a lot of sense to me even though my flint is currently leather wrapped...Just looking to improve gun performance/reliability of spark? Have others here given this lead wrap thing a serious try with good results? Dan

1) ALL frizzens tend to rebound to a certain degree whether using leather or lead - this has been proven several times over by Larry Pletcher in his hi-speed photos, so in fact Mr. V's point is moot - lead in and of itself does not prevent rebound - if the flint/hammer is rebounding (unlikley) then you have a weak mainspring as compared to the frizzen spring or something else SERIOUSLY wrong with your lock.

2) Using a strong enough mainspring and a matching frizzen spring will obviate rebound - this is how the uber experts at building flintlocks such as Twigg, Mortimer, and the Mantons built their locks at a time when one's life depended on them - including dueling pistols which in most cased sets have a tool especially for cutting leather flint holders. Comparing a lock from one of these makers to a TC, Lyman, or similar is like comparing a Ferrari to a Yugo - yep they'll both get you there but.........

3)

My article lays out the simple test to do to see the difference in sparks. There are people here who refuse to do the test correctly, and then condemn me for my article's conclusions

Been there and done that and again with a lock with nice strong springs as one should be built with, the difference was/is indetectable - I've done that test (which has been touted by some folks since at least the early 1970's as "proving" that lead was/is better) with 6 different locks, all high quality properly tuned locks with good, strong springs - 3 Chambers, 2 L & R (one of which I just fixed with a new mainspring because the other one became too weak to spark properly, not by making the frizzen spring softer), and 1 Bob Roller - probably the finest built flintlock today and the price reflects it. Perhaps in a lightly sprung lock as Paul touts it may make a difference, but I don't and won't use such light springs and no many other long time shooters who won't don't either.

Bottomline though - Everyone should use what you choose, but leather has a proven history (well over 200 years) and in a properly tuned lock with good strong springs any difference between it and lead will need to be decided by hi-speed photos, but to tout that one way or the other is "definitively" better is IMO mis-leading at best and wrong at worst.
But if you choose to use lead so be it - knock yourself out. BTW - Historically lead was used in the military locks of the day (all of which had large, strong springs and large parts), but the reason was one of supply not that lead had an perceived advantage over leather.

FWIW - as noted before I've been shooting flintlocks since 196s and by no means consider myself an "expert", but I've used and seen used more than my fair share of quality and junk and everything in between. I've also seen all kinds of ways to "fix" the less than the best and while I'm by no means rich monetarily I've always found it was worth it to buy the best available.....