Lead Hardness for Cap and Ball Conicals

[DenverMann18]

I’m getting started casting conicals from an Eras Gone mold for my Uberti 1861 Navy. I have access to a wealth of plumbing lead, but I’m afraid it might be a bit too hard. I used artist’s pencils to try to get a rough estimate of the BHN, and 4B was the lowest hardness that would scratch it significantly. Therefore, I would guess that its hardness is equivalent to a 5B pencil, or 7-8 BHN. Would this be too hard, or will it work ok with my Navy? Thanks in advance.

 

[dave951]

Ideally, no, it's too hard. Real world, it will shoot, just probably not as accurate. One other thing, your actual bullet size is highly alloy and temperature dependent when casting.

The problem if you're referring to plumber's solder is the level of tin in the alloy. If it's salvaged pipe, then the tin content is low.

 

[Justin.44]

@DenverMann18 Is this plumbing lead in ingot form or still in rough old pieces? If it's not in ingots it may be too rough on the outside to get an accurate reading from the pencils. I'll bet if you make it into ingots and try on a smooth surface it will scratch with the 6B pencil.

Either way, it will shoot in your revolver, but as Dave said, maybe not the most accurate. I just tried some of the Eras Gone .36 Colt bullets in my '51 Navy and they were really accurate.

 

[satwel]

FWIW I have a Remington 1858 New Army and unless I use the purest lead available, I cannot start my cast projectiles into the chambers. My brother gave me some ingots of lead recovered from the backstop at his gun club but the balls I cast from it were too hard to conform to the chamber mouths. My advice is to cast a few bullets and test them to see if you can load them into your cylinder before you cast a whole bunch only to find they won't fit.

 

[rodwha]

I don’t know, there’s a group of guys who hunt with Kaido’s bullets and iirc they were roughly 10 BHN. These guys have been hunting hogs in Florida with all sorts of percussion revolvers and his hard bullets. I don’t see a need to be that hard for these lower velocities. I have fill issues and have been considering going to 2% tin to help but it seems I’m getting conflicting info, that 2% tin will add less than a BHN, but saw somewhere else it stated that 2.5% tin was 8.5 BHN. I haven’t worried much about alloys until now.

 

[DenverMann18]

@DenverMann18 Is this plumbing lead in ingot form or still in rough old pieces? If it's not in ingots it may be too rough on the outside to get an accurate reading from the pencils. I'll bet if you make it into ingots and try on a smooth surface it will scratch with the 6B pencil.

Either way, it will shoot in your revolver, but as Dave said, maybe not the most accurate. I just tried some of the Eras Gone .36 Colt bullets in my '51 Navy and they were really accurate.

The lead was a solid chunk in a old melting pot; the sample I tested with pencils was a bullet I cast. I wish I could blame it on surface hardening.

 

[DenverMann18]

FWIW I have a Remington 1858 New Army and unless I use the purest lead available, I cannot start my cast projectiles into the chambers. My brother gave me some ingots of lead recovered from the backstop at his gun club but the balls I cast from it were too hard to conform to the chamber mouths. My advice is to cast a few bullets and test them to see if you can load them into your cylinder before you cast a whole bunch only to find they won't fit.

I will try seating a sample bullet next time I get to do some shooting. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Eddie Southgate]

Might have to use a little more effort on the lever but the lead should work . Best to stick with known pure lead for ML bullets but I have used wheel weights in times past and they work fine for revolver bullets if they are sized correctly for your chambers .

 

[Woody Morgan]

If you're concerned about bending a loading rod, get a standalone bench loader.
Don't remember where I got mine, though.

wm

 

[hrt4me]

**** Dastardly Tower of Power

 

[nkbj]

Go as soft as you have access to.
I'm molding some today with the old Ideal #452389. Will size them to slip into the chambers.
By the way, there's a really nice characteristic to .36's. Small bullets mean it's easier to swage the slugs the fit the chambers.

Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without.

 

[Jayhawkdan]

I’m getting started casting conicals from an Eras Gone mold for my Uberti 1861 Navy. I have access to a wealth of plumbing lead, but I’m afraid it might be a bit too hard. I used artist’s pencils to try to get a rough estimate of the BHN, and 4B was the lowest hardness that would scratch it significantly. Therefore, I would guess that its hardness is equivalent to a 5B pencil, or 7-8 BHN. Would this be too hard, or will it work ok with my Navy? Thanks in advance.

Everything I've read states that it is best to use pure lead, not an alloy. I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination.

Jayhawkdan

 

[Gtrubicon]

Go as soft as you have access to.
I'm molding some today with the old Ideal #452389. Will size them to slip into the chambers.
By the way, there's a really nice characteristic to .36's. Small bullets mean it's easier to swage the slugs the fit the chambers.

Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without.

I’d love to learn more about this, I have this mold.

 

[rodwha]

I’ve read and been told 2% to help with bullet mold fill is just fine. And Kaido was selling his conicals at either 8-10 or 10-12 BHN for many, many years. Those guys have been hunting Florida hogs with theirs through all sorts of BP revolvers. Seems they’ve handled a pretty steady diet of them for nearly a decade I’m guessing.

I’ve come across conflicting info on 2% tin. Rotometals states on their site that for each 1% of tin adds just 0.3 BHN. However their 2.5% tin ingots state 7-8 BHN. I can’t find scrap lead locally and figured I’d have to order from them. Since I have been having fill issues I figured a little tin was a good idea, maybe looking to mix their 2.5% tin with pure 50/50, but I’m not sure about melting down 10 lbs at a time.

 

[nkbj]

I’d love to learn more about this, I have this mold.

I opened a chrono thread.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/hand-guns-chronograph-thread.134981/#post-1887025

 

[Jayhawkdan]

DenverMann, you used the term "surface hardening" in an earlier reply. What is "surface hardening?" The reason I ask is because I have a bunch of 360 gr., .50 cal. REAL bullets I purchased several years ago, and these are so hard that I have to use a hammer on my short starter to get them started down the barrel of my T/C Hawken and my Lyman GPR. Could this be due to surface hardening, or is it an alloy with too much tin and/or antimony? I sure could use some help with this!!

 

[DenverMann18]

DenverMann, you used the term "surface hardening" in an earlier reply. What is "surface hardening?" The reason I ask is because I have a bunch of 360 gr., .50 cal. REAL bullets I purchased several years ago, and these are so hard that I have to use a hammer on my short starter to get them started down the barrel of my T/C Hawken and my Lyman GPR. Could this be due to surface hardening, or is it an alloy with too much tin and/or antimony? I sure could use some help with this!!

As I understand it, lead will oxidize like any other base metal; when it does, the outer surface becomes a bit harder than the unexposed metal underneath. While this harder “shell” could affect the reading of a hardness test, it shouldn’t make a normally soft bullet so hard it has to be hammered in. There’s almost certainly too much tin or antimony mixed into your alloy. That said, I am by no means the expert. If anyone sees a problem with my analysis feel free to point it out.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I think @DenverMann18 has come to the same conclusion that I have. The bullet has too much tin or antimony and is much harder than pure lead.

 

[Jayhawkdan]

As I understand it, lead will oxidize like any other base metal; when it does, the outer surface becomes a bit harder than the unexposed metal underneath. While this harder “shell” could affect the reading of a hardness test, it shouldn’t make a normally soft bullet so hard it has to be hammered in. There’s almost certainly too much tin or antimony mixed into your alloy. That said, I am by no means the expert. If anyone sees a problem with my analysis feel free to point it out.

Thank you, DenverMann and Grenadier! That seems reasonable to me. Now, what can I do about it--if anything?

 

[mooman76]

melt them down and recast them. You might be able to anneal them by placing them in an oven to near melting point but that is more of an educated guess.