-
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Lead/pewter bolsters...?
- Thread starter PaulN/KS
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate
links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2003
- Messages
- 6,475
- Reaction score
- 1,398
Pewter bolsters would be no indication of age. The knives could be from the second quarter of the 19th c., up to nearing WW2. Give or take a few years.
Thanks Wick,
One of the butcher knives has the smaller pins holding the scales so I figured that one was older than the two that have cutlers rivets.
Didn't know that there was such a broad time frame for that type of bolster...
One of the butcher knives has the smaller pins holding the scales so I figured that one was older than the two that have cutlers rivets.
Didn't know that there was such a broad time frame for that type of bolster...
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2003
- Messages
- 6,475
- Reaction score
- 1,398
The smaller pins are not a definate indicator of age either, but does open things up for being possibly older. The norm in the 18th c. and early 19th c., was small iron pins, from about 1/16th dia. to around an 1/8", and seldom more than three. If I remember correctly, cutlers rivets show up about mid to maybe later 19th c. Crockett or Labonte could give you a more difinative dating on those.
The cutler rivets would be more 1890 "ish". On the Pewter Bolsters- first used on pocket knives around 1812 if I remember correctly- on the Green River type knives you see a lot of poured bolsters but I'd say those date 1850 and later. Now, nothing is etched in stone here- some of the cartouche or table knives pre-1840 show bolsters however these were most likely integral but some could have been poured pewter- remember pre-1840 knives were forged so someone was already pounding away- it wasn't that much of a deal to go ahead and forge a bolster. That was likely easier than forging the knife and then setting it up for a poured bolster. After 1850 when barstock and metal stamping was turning out mass produced knives then it would have been more economical to pour a bolster.
P.S. examples of poured bolster butcher knives can be found in Levine's Antique Knives 5th Edition- most public libraries have a copy.
P.S. examples of poured bolster butcher knives can be found in Levine's Antique Knives 5th Edition- most public libraries have a copy.
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2003
- Messages
- 6,475
- Reaction score
- 1,398
On 18th c. and probably 19th c. French knives, many had the iron bolsters forge welded in place, making them appear to be integral. They considered this method faster and easier than working a tang and blade from a thick bar.
Sheffield knives used a integral bolster, formed after the iron tang was welded to the steel blade. On forks and whittle/rat tail tang knives the fancy bolster was swaged and you can usually see tiny fold lines on early pieces.
Cartouche knives had plain integral bolsters unless they were of the brass inlaid type.
Now back to our topic. As always, pics help. :grin:
Cartouche knives had plain integral bolsters unless they were of the brass inlaid type.
Now back to our topic. As always, pics help. :grin:
Wick: on forge welding. I've always had a problem understanding how that works. The only type of welding I'm familiar with is the modern or arc type where you wear the welding helmet. You get a little "puddle" of molten steel going and when it cools everything is one piece unless you got impurities into the weld. What exactly is forge welding? I hear about getting the steel hot to "welding temperature" but unless you get molten steel- how does it stick together? Is it a mechanical lock or some such thing? I've seen some of the twist steel where bars are placed side by side and then twisted together and hammered- that I can see- I would figure a mechanical lock. In other words- with forge welding is there actually a molecular bonding of the two pieces?
Just checked out the one with the guy forge welding a branch- I never realized if you got steel almost white hot and pounded it together it welded- really opens up a whole new world. Thanks a bunch.
I've gotta take some black smith classes-
I've gotta take some black smith classes-
Trip hammers are just one type of mechanized hammer and their history is much older than the late 1830s. Tilt hammers in particular as well as other types of water powered or mechanical type trip hammers (at times man powered) were used for forging centuries before the GRW. The Wikipedia article on them is actually quite good - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trip_hammerTrip hammers. Not used until the Green River Works.
I know of a knifemaker or two in Germany who still use tilt hammers dating from the early 1300's - one is a 30 ton monster!
Actually beating the daylights out of it is counter productive, when the proper heat is achieved it takes only minimal pressure to get a good weld. Hitting too hard is a common mistake often made by beginners - too much/too hard beating generally breaks the weld - you simply can not force the metal together with muscle power or even mechanical power, it is a matter of bringing both pieces to the proper temp so that you can make that molecular bond. For instance when I'm steeling a small axe or tomahawk head I use no larger than a two pound hammer and then just more tap it than beat it.White hot and fluxed, then beat the c*%p out of it. Yup, it welds.
Also white hot can be good for welding wrought iron (depends on the quality and carbon content), but it is generally too hot for high carbon steel - at that temp it usually wants to crumble - not a good thing. All things considered the higher the carbon content the lower the welding temp. This discrepancy in the proper heat range is what can cause trouble when forge welding two disparate types such as wrought or puddle iron and high carbon steel.
Back when I was first learning to smith, my teacher had me weld up at least one piece a day (often chain links) so that I would learn by practice how to do it right - after a time I learned what temps/methods worked with various types of iron/steel, but it's a task that needs to be kept up with in order to stay good at.
Last edited by a moderator:
Tilt hammers were widely used by the Sheffield makers and later by GRW......Do you know if trip hammers were used in forging knives
:bull: alert: Pichou admits he has never forge welded anything.
About trip hammers tho, would like to see refs for their widespread use in Sheffiled by cutlers.
Just haven't seen much on them in my research.
:v
This quote refers to making stock for cutlers:
About trip hammers tho, would like to see refs for their widespread use in Sheffiled by cutlers.
Just haven't seen much on them in my research.
:v
This quote refers to making stock for cutlers:
This made it suitable for drawing iron down to small sizes suitable for the cutlery trades. There were therefore many such forges known as 'tilts' around Sheffield.
LaBonte- I re-read Wayne Goddard's $50 knife shop because he had some information on forge welding. From what I gather you want the parts to be forge welded a little thicker than their final shape and a borax flux to prevent oxidation- then you gently tap the pieces- so as to not drive out all the flux and invite oxidation and you look for dark bands around the outside that would indicate the area didn't weld. If all looks well you then hammer down the now welded pieces to their final shape. I think he said 1300 degree is welding heat- at that temperature the electrons of the steel start mingling with one another and create a true weld- I never knew that. As I previously posted- that you tube on welding a "branch" the second the smith puts the pieces together they seem to stick. Now is 1300 degree a bright yellow?
Now it also says a heavy piece of metal keeps its heat longer and is easier to forge weld so my question is this- I can see forge welding a stick tang on to a blade- it would be similar to the you tube "branch" video- but we originally were speaking about bolsters. I thought these were integral but I suppose they could have been forge welded- maybe heat the heavier bolster and then forge weld the blade on- or if it was a pocket knife- the liner on to the bolster.
So- questions, questions, questions.
Let's take a Barlow with a long, integral bolster. I was wondering if the back part- the liner- was pounded out by hand with a hand held sedge hammer, or if instead- a stock piece was fed into a tilt/trip hammer and it was done that way- they were supposed to be inexpensive knives. OR.. Now I'm wondering if the iron bolster was forge welded to an iron liner. Is there any line or mark to indicate the parts were forge welded? A lot of folding knives had both a shoulder and heel bolster- all integral with the liner- so the middle part was thinned down to a liner thickness- In the Circle of the Mechanical Arts it says the bolsters were forged- which would likely mean the middle part was not ground away- but how difficult was it to thin the middle area? Cross peen and then flatten?
On fixed bladed knives with integral bolsters- were they pounded out by hand, put into a tilt/trip hammer? or forge welded?
Pichou- I see photographs of Sheffield with all the canals, etc so the shops could use water power- obviously for grinding but I was also wondering if water power was used for tilt/trip hammers- hence my question.
One does see sketches of old shops in which it appears various people are working with hand held tools.
Now it also says a heavy piece of metal keeps its heat longer and is easier to forge weld so my question is this- I can see forge welding a stick tang on to a blade- it would be similar to the you tube "branch" video- but we originally were speaking about bolsters. I thought these were integral but I suppose they could have been forge welded- maybe heat the heavier bolster and then forge weld the blade on- or if it was a pocket knife- the liner on to the bolster.
So- questions, questions, questions.
Let's take a Barlow with a long, integral bolster. I was wondering if the back part- the liner- was pounded out by hand with a hand held sedge hammer, or if instead- a stock piece was fed into a tilt/trip hammer and it was done that way- they were supposed to be inexpensive knives. OR.. Now I'm wondering if the iron bolster was forge welded to an iron liner. Is there any line or mark to indicate the parts were forge welded? A lot of folding knives had both a shoulder and heel bolster- all integral with the liner- so the middle part was thinned down to a liner thickness- In the Circle of the Mechanical Arts it says the bolsters were forged- which would likely mean the middle part was not ground away- but how difficult was it to thin the middle area? Cross peen and then flatten?
On fixed bladed knives with integral bolsters- were they pounded out by hand, put into a tilt/trip hammer? or forge welded?
Pichou- I see photographs of Sheffield with all the canals, etc so the shops could use water power- obviously for grinding but I was also wondering if water power was used for tilt/trip hammers- hence my question.
One does see sketches of old shops in which it appears various people are working with hand held tools.
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2003
- Messages
- 6,475
- Reaction score
- 1,398
Dave, 1300° is way short of a welding heat. It is not even non-magnetic. 1300° would be more near a stress relieveing heat, and maybe a very low red in color. I believe welding heat is up near a yellow white heat. Just a WAG, maybe 2200°? Labonte would know for sure. Just FYI, a forge weld is not as strong as a modern weld.
As far as the integral Barlow bolsters, my guess would be they were forged thin in the middle of a block, then filed to finish, but I really don't know. I can see it being done either way. I would think on fixed blade knives, the bolster would be formed integral from the same bar as the blade/tang.
As far as the integral Barlow bolsters, my guess would be they were forged thin in the middle of a block, then filed to finish, but I really don't know. I can see it being done either way. I would think on fixed blade knives, the bolster would be formed integral from the same bar as the blade/tang.
Per Don Fogg re: welding a high carbon Damascus billet:
You have to use visual clues to judge when the billet is at welding heat. In a really hot fire it is necessary to soak at temperature for a bit because the surface of the billet will be ready while the interior is still cool. The flux is a good indicator of the heat of the billet. Bill Moran says the billet is ready when the surface looks like butter melted in the hot sun. The flux has wet out and will drip freely off the end of the billet when it is tipped down. Little bubbles will dance around on the surface. Look the whole billet over and make sure that the heat has equalized through out.
"Look for the glassy surface or tackiness. Stars and sparks are above welding heat."
for more info see www.anvilfire.com
"Table knives are mostly made of sheer-steel, the tang and shoulder being of iron, the blade being attached by giving them a welding heat."
Whether all knives were done that way is another question. In a period when steel was slow and hard to make and was thus valuable, making the bolster and tang from iron makes sense.
As to the bolsters on folders - there is some pretty good evidence that much of this was done by using molds and heavy tilt hammers, much in the same way gun parts were forged - think drop forged......this wad done for parts as well as blades.
Pichou - I don;t have a lot of that info at hand anymore. Much of it was learned back in the 1970's when I first started building period knives and studying the methods used back when. It is out there though.
As for power - by the mid-1700's both water and steam were used to run the machinery for the cutlery business. The large, mostly water powered, tilt hammers were used for the heavy forging of stock and smaller steam powered hammers were used for the finer forging. I recently saw a video somewhere on line of of a steam hammer from IIRC the early-mid 1830's that is still and use and what a tool!
You have to use visual clues to judge when the billet is at welding heat. In a really hot fire it is necessary to soak at temperature for a bit because the surface of the billet will be ready while the interior is still cool. The flux is a good indicator of the heat of the billet. Bill Moran says the billet is ready when the surface looks like butter melted in the hot sun. The flux has wet out and will drip freely off the end of the billet when it is tipped down. Little bubbles will dance around on the surface. Look the whole billet over and make sure that the heat has equalized through out.
"Look for the glassy surface or tackiness. Stars and sparks are above welding heat."
for more info see www.anvilfire.com
Not according to the period book Circle of Mechanical Arts - the iron bolster and tang were forged to the blade on table knives anyway.I would think on fixed blade knives, the bolster would be formed integral from the same bar as the blade/tang.
"Table knives are mostly made of sheer-steel, the tang and shoulder being of iron, the blade being attached by giving them a welding heat."
Whether all knives were done that way is another question. In a period when steel was slow and hard to make and was thus valuable, making the bolster and tang from iron makes sense.
As to the bolsters on folders - there is some pretty good evidence that much of this was done by using molds and heavy tilt hammers, much in the same way gun parts were forged - think drop forged......this wad done for parts as well as blades.
Pichou - I don;t have a lot of that info at hand anymore. Much of it was learned back in the 1970's when I first started building period knives and studying the methods used back when. It is out there though.
As for power - by the mid-1700's both water and steam were used to run the machinery for the cutlery business. The large, mostly water powered, tilt hammers were used for the heavy forging of stock and smaller steam powered hammers were used for the finer forging. I recently saw a video somewhere on line of of a steam hammer from IIRC the early-mid 1830's that is still and use and what a tool!
Last edited by a moderator:
Similar threads
- Replies
- 23
- Views
- 2K
