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Lead/pewter bolsters...?
- Thread starter PaulN/KS
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Steam power helped break the water powered grinders' monopoly. Owners rented space at rows of different grit stones.
Since there were only a few water mills possible... monopoly. With steam the cutler's "works" were more complete, i.e. vertically integrated. Some even converted their own steel.
Spring knife cutlers were a specialized trade and they used lots of special swage blocks. Probably how they made the liner-bolsters of 1 piece.
Since there were only a few water mills possible... monopoly. With steam the cutler's "works" were more complete, i.e. vertically integrated. Some even converted their own steel.
Spring knife cutlers were a specialized trade and they used lots of special swage blocks. Probably how they made the liner-bolsters of 1 piece.
Here ya go Davy.......with thanks to W. Ben Hunt http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/tutorials/_pewter.htmlDavy said:
Rather than paper I like to use manila file folders and regular masking tape works best.
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Well- I want to try to draw some conclusions and if I'm off I'd like others to chime in.
1. Nothing is etched in stone, so pewter poured bolster could conceivably appear at any time but generally on a pocket knife- not before about 1812.
The Russell Green River butcher and skinning blades with poured bolsters would be post 1840- maybe late 1840's and then ever more common thereafter up through 1870's.
2. The bolsters on pre-1840 knives:
a. Fixed Blade Knives- the blade is steel and the bolster/tang iron and forge welded to the blade
b. Pocket or Folding knife- the integral type bolster was forged from a single piece of metal- a generally done with hand held hammers- perhaps from 1825 on the use of tilt hammers in England began to be used- I was told on another forum that the French used tilt hammers earlier than the English on folding knives- the mid to late 1700's but French made folding knives with springs were not imported that much to North America- to my knowledge- most of the folding French knives didn't have springs.
1. Nothing is etched in stone, so pewter poured bolster could conceivably appear at any time but generally on a pocket knife- not before about 1812.
The Russell Green River butcher and skinning blades with poured bolsters would be post 1840- maybe late 1840's and then ever more common thereafter up through 1870's.
2. The bolsters on pre-1840 knives:
a. Fixed Blade Knives- the blade is steel and the bolster/tang iron and forge welded to the blade
b. Pocket or Folding knife- the integral type bolster was forged from a single piece of metal- a generally done with hand held hammers- perhaps from 1825 on the use of tilt hammers in England began to be used- I was told on another forum that the French used tilt hammers earlier than the English on folding knives- the mid to late 1700's but French made folding knives with springs were not imported that much to North America- to my knowledge- most of the folding French knives didn't have springs.
To confuse the issues a little more, there's this link where the researcher says these particular early FRench ones are iron. He doesn't say if they had any steel welded as edges. Link
Another link i can't find right now shows some French( if i recall from this similar early timeframe) belt knives having wrought iron construction but forge welded steel edges.
Here's a link with some knife photos from northern Michigan.
Link
Another link i can't find right now shows some French( if i recall from this similar early timeframe) belt knives having wrought iron construction but forge welded steel edges.
Here's a link with some knife photos from northern Michigan.
Link
Some archeologists use "iron" for all ferrous metals (except nickel :haha: ).
Bob, yeah... diggin up graveyards? :hmm:
He does see a lot of stuff, but he doesn't know his artifacts very well.
from left to right,
English, English, French, probably English.
Bob, yeah... diggin up graveyards? :hmm:
He does see a lot of stuff, but he doesn't know his artifacts very well.
from left to right,
English, English, French, probably English.
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n ohio, you are off base. Your reaction to Pichous' comments is a tad extreme, and could have been said in a more civil manner. Whereas Pichou could be described as a wiseass by some, his expertise is quite valued by others, including myself. I am certainly no expert, but it would my opinion that the trade knives shown would not be of common iron. They would be of steel with enough carbon to at least hold a decent edge. These knives were not only traded to NA's, they were sold to colonials as well. If they did not perform to the expectations of the time, the makers would not have been able to continue business. Trade knives were very thin bladed. If made of just iron, they would have been easily bent, and would not hold an edge very long. It is just my opinion, and you may certianly do as you see right, but I think you might owe Pichou an apology, and then re-word your post if you like.
Pichou is correct about some of those knives being English- for example in his "French Knives from the 1600's there is:
http://bobsphotogallery.com/gallery2/v/FurTrade/AKnifeor2/album_004/xl.jpg.html
This scalper with the Maltese Cross over the letter "L"- that stamp mark was registered to Benjamin Fenton, a Sheffield cutler, in 1822. Fenton sold knives first to the N.W. Co and after the merger- to the HBC.
In other words- it was not made in the 1600's and it is not French.
http://bobsphotogallery.com/gallery2/v/FurTrade/AKnifeor2/album_004/xl.jpg.html
This scalper with the Maltese Cross over the letter "L"- that stamp mark was registered to Benjamin Fenton, a Sheffield cutler, in 1822. Fenton sold knives first to the N.W. Co and after the merger- to the HBC.
In other words- it was not made in the 1600's and it is not French.
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n ohio said:
Read that paper 3 years ago. Been following Bob's digging longer than that.
I thought this forum was cracking down on personal "comments." Maybe I'll check back in a couple months?
Guess I'm just showing off again. :idunno: It's not like I'm making the study of fur trade artifacts my life's work or anything. Oh, wait...
Well- I'd like to keep the thread moving if anyone is still interested.
1. Tilt/trip hammers- I think in the 5th Edition of Levine's Antique knives he shows a plate from Perret's Art of the Cutler published in 1771 where a trip hammer is being using to forge blades. I am told the French preceded the English- the English did not start using trip hammers to forge blades until the 19th C but I don't have an exact date.
2. Swaged bolsters- what is the difference between swaged and forged?
3. Water power- I once visted the National Park in Lowell, MA- it is a "Park" of how the factories there operated- sort of interesting. In any event they had a net work of canals off of the main river so that water power was available to a much larger area than just along the river- that's all I know about it- but I was under the impression Sheffield may have been of a similar set up.
4. Forged welded bolsters- how can you tell if a bolster has been forge welded on to a blade/tang? Is there a line at the area of the forged weld? In other words let's say there are two old knives with bolsters- one is integral and the other forged. How is one able to tell the difference?
5. And...on the 1812 poured pewter bolster- for folding knives that date should have been 1867- sorry.
6. Iron knives- on p.405 of Carl P. Russell's "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men" is a list of some of the goods and equipment from Astor's "Astoria". There are iron knives, handled, also steel knives- not tempered, and the same but just as blades. Was "iron" really plain old iron or was it something more like blister steel? Could you case harden an iron blade at the fort? I think that is sort of what blister steel was?
Also- on case hardening- if that was done I think I re-call on a tub of Kasenit I bought that you could get a skin thick hardening or if you packed the steel in a pipe, etc the carbon would go into the steel .10"- is that possible? How would such as edge hold up?
1. Tilt/trip hammers- I think in the 5th Edition of Levine's Antique knives he shows a plate from Perret's Art of the Cutler published in 1771 where a trip hammer is being using to forge blades. I am told the French preceded the English- the English did not start using trip hammers to forge blades until the 19th C but I don't have an exact date.
2. Swaged bolsters- what is the difference between swaged and forged?
3. Water power- I once visted the National Park in Lowell, MA- it is a "Park" of how the factories there operated- sort of interesting. In any event they had a net work of canals off of the main river so that water power was available to a much larger area than just along the river- that's all I know about it- but I was under the impression Sheffield may have been of a similar set up.
4. Forged welded bolsters- how can you tell if a bolster has been forge welded on to a blade/tang? Is there a line at the area of the forged weld? In other words let's say there are two old knives with bolsters- one is integral and the other forged. How is one able to tell the difference?
5. And...on the 1812 poured pewter bolster- for folding knives that date should have been 1867- sorry.
6. Iron knives- on p.405 of Carl P. Russell's "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men" is a list of some of the goods and equipment from Astor's "Astoria". There are iron knives, handled, also steel knives- not tempered, and the same but just as blades. Was "iron" really plain old iron or was it something more like blister steel? Could you case harden an iron blade at the fort? I think that is sort of what blister steel was?
Also- on case hardening- if that was done I think I re-call on a tub of Kasenit I bought that you could get a skin thick hardening or if you packed the steel in a pipe, etc the carbon would go into the steel .10"- is that possible? How would such as edge hold up?
I'm going to try and get some pictures taken and posted to show some of the knives. Untill then, I appreciate all the info from those who have provided it.
And Pichou thanks for sharing what you have learned. :hatsoff:
Better to be thoght of as a wise... than to be known as a dumb... :wink:
And Pichou thanks for sharing what you have learned. :hatsoff:
Better to be thoght of as a wise... than to be known as a dumb... :wink:
Blister steel was made by carburizing wrought iron for an extended period of time at realtively high temperatures - 1600 F +. The preferred raw material for carburizing in England was Swedish wrought iron. Factories existed in the 1600's to produce blister or shear steel. They ran into at least the 1800's, but were replaced as time passed by crucible steel produced by the Huntsman process, which was developed in the 1700's. (And later by the Bessemer or Kelly process in the 1850's/1860's.)I want to say around 1760/1770, but the reference materials are at home. Producing blister steel was a solid state process - producing crucible steel required that the charge be melted in a refractory crucible. References for production of blister & crucible steel are volumes 1 and 2 of "Steelmaking Before Bessemer" by R. F. Tylecote
You don't necessarily have to produce carburized wrought iron to get a steel. Both the Catalan forge and the Japanese Tatara are able to produce natural steels. For another Crucible process, look into Wootz steel, the original damascus steel, which a high carbon steel via melting in a crucible and predates Huntsman.
Forge welding was natural during the time being discussed due in part to the high silica content of wrought iron it was self fluxing to a fair extent. Blacksmiths from that time thought of making things by building them up via forge welding. With modern steels, we think of taking larger sections and forging them down.
You don't necessarily have to produce carburized wrought iron to get a steel. Both the Catalan forge and the Japanese Tatara are able to produce natural steels. For another Crucible process, look into Wootz steel, the original damascus steel, which a high carbon steel via melting in a crucible and predates Huntsman.
Forge welding was natural during the time being discussed due in part to the high silica content of wrought iron it was self fluxing to a fair extent. Blacksmiths from that time thought of making things by building them up via forge welding. With modern steels, we think of taking larger sections and forging them down.
A couple of notes:
1) Crucible or cast steel was first produced in 1745, bit wasn't real popular in England until the late 1770's (the Sheffield smith's didn't like it claiming it was too hard. It was a method of refining blister steel (the "mother steel" for both shear and cast steel) by melting the blister steel in a crucible which homgenized the mix.
2) The Huntsman process nor the Bessemer process ever completely replaced the blister steel or shear steel. Both blister and shear steel were produced up until World War 1, albeit in smaller quantities. What really killed them off was the death of so many trained bladesmiths in the War to End All Wars. I've got a few knives from the 1860-70 period from shear steel and have seem many more dated pieces that were made in the early 1900's.
Much of the silica content in wrought iron is due to using sand as the flux when producing it - the mored refined grades of wrought i.e. Double wrought and triple wrought, have much less silecates due to the working. I've often taken lesser quality wrought such as used on wagon wheel rims, worked them several times at heat to remove the excess silcates. Puddle iron was another method of refining wrought iron - basically the Huntsman process of re-melting the plain wrought in a crucible to burn off the "manure" and thus make it purer - good puddle iron is a joy to work with....moves under the hammer like the proverbial butter at heat.
One quick correction - the author for Steelmaking Before Bessemer is K. C. Barraclough, not R.F. Tylecote.
Tylecote has authored a number of books on metallurgy and archaeology, just not the ones in question.
New wrought iron is to the best of my knowledge no longer being made commercially. It's available primarily from recycling - it often shows up at blacksmith get togethers such as Quad State in Troy, Ohio usually held the last weekend in September. It's also availble re-rolled from the Real Wrought Iron Company in Great Britain which recycles/reclaims wrought iron for use in repairs, etc.
Tylecote has authored a number of books on metallurgy and archaeology, just not the ones in question.
New wrought iron is to the best of my knowledge no longer being made commercially. It's available primarily from recycling - it often shows up at blacksmith get togethers such as Quad State in Troy, Ohio usually held the last weekend in September. It's also availble re-rolled from the Real Wrought Iron Company in Great Britain which recycles/reclaims wrought iron for use in repairs, etc.
Timothy Kent's book "Fort Pontchartrain at Detroit"
A man named Bondaroy closely observing cutlery works manufacturing techniques in 1763 at St-Etienne-en Forez and Charbon, France.
"...Bondary noted that the sheath and table knives which were manufactured without a bolster were produced from a single bar of steel. In contrast, versions with a bolster were created by inserting a strip of steel into a slit in one edge of the iron bar. When the bar was heated and worked, the steel portion was formed into the cutting edge, while the iron portion was fashioned into the back of the blade,the bolster, and either a slender tang or a flat handle section."
Over on Frontierfolk yesterday were posted, 4 photos of two table knives with the tangs and bolsters formed of iron and the blade of steel forge welded to them.
I'll post a link to them Pichou if you'd like? for your lifetime research.
A man named Bondaroy closely observing cutlery works manufacturing techniques in 1763 at St-Etienne-en Forez and Charbon, France.
"...Bondary noted that the sheath and table knives which were manufactured without a bolster were produced from a single bar of steel. In contrast, versions with a bolster were created by inserting a strip of steel into a slit in one edge of the iron bar. When the bar was heated and worked, the steel portion was formed into the cutting edge, while the iron portion was fashioned into the back of the blade,the bolster, and either a slender tang or a flat handle section."
Over on Frontierfolk yesterday were posted, 4 photos of two table knives with the tangs and bolsters formed of iron and the blade of steel forge welded to them.
I'll post a link to them Pichou if you'd like? for your lifetime research.
crockett said:
Yes, wrought iron can be found and/or purchased. Pre-1930 structures often have wrought iron- bridges, hoops on old wooden silos, etc. Of course forged iron strap barn door hinges, iron rims on wooden wheels, etc are sources. I sometimes find old horseshoes that are wrought iron- can see the grain. Wrought iron gives a different spark pattern when held to a grinder than mild steel but the grain is usually the tell-tale sign on old rusty stuff. It does not look homogeneous but has longitudinal grain.
That's really good information but just one word of caution. We have to keep in mind what we are interested in- table knives, trade knives, etc.
I had not heard of the technique described but if I understand it correctly- there was a steel "bit" in the knife blade- similar to how some axes were made- the rest was iron- is that correct? And- is that purely a technique being done in France and were any of those type of knives imported here???
Over the years I have had sort of acquired a new understanding on cutlery but mostly from English cutlers. Originally I thought we were a "wilderness nation" so we wanted affordable knives. There is some truth to that but it is also true that the average American was living a higher standard of living than his European peasant kin. This difference might not seem like much today- what I am speaking of is an American with say 20 acres of land he owned, livestock he owned, etc- as compared to a tenant farmer of a European noble. In any event, the gist of all this is that a lot of the cutlery sent to America was the better grade stuff- not the cheap knives that were sold to the European peasants.
I'm not yet quite sure what to make of all of it- just mentioning it in passing- that we might take a hard look at some inexpensive European cutlery to make sure it was sent over on this side of the pond. I'm pretty interested in this subject so if anyone knows- please tell.
I had not heard of the technique described but if I understand it correctly- there was a steel "bit" in the knife blade- similar to how some axes were made- the rest was iron- is that correct? And- is that purely a technique being done in France and were any of those type of knives imported here???
Over the years I have had sort of acquired a new understanding on cutlery but mostly from English cutlers. Originally I thought we were a "wilderness nation" so we wanted affordable knives. There is some truth to that but it is also true that the average American was living a higher standard of living than his European peasant kin. This difference might not seem like much today- what I am speaking of is an American with say 20 acres of land he owned, livestock he owned, etc- as compared to a tenant farmer of a European noble. In any event, the gist of all this is that a lot of the cutlery sent to America was the better grade stuff- not the cheap knives that were sold to the European peasants.
I'm not yet quite sure what to make of all of it- just mentioning it in passing- that we might take a hard look at some inexpensive European cutlery to make sure it was sent over on this side of the pond. I'm pretty interested in this subject so if anyone knows- please tell.
Go here to get some very good qulity wrought iron
http://wisconsinwoodchuck.net/treasures.htm
Dave - I've got pics of English made table knives showing how and where the bolster/tang of WI was welded to the blade. Steel was hard and expensive to make up until the 1860's so saving steel was important. Even today most makers of Damascus knives for instance usually weld a tang of iron of mild steel to the Damascus blades for the same reason. Cost was also the reason so many trade knives were made with short tangs.
As to being better off than the Euros who stayed "home" - remember many of the Colonials were either sent here from debtor's prison or were sent as indentured servants and many stayed poor for a very long time even after serving their time and many more ran away hoping for a better life (period papers are full of runaway asverts), but that better life was not always so easily obtained, even when they stole a grubstake from their master.
Quality of knives varied considerably and cheap trade knives were just that - as cheaply made as possible, although they did vary in quality from the poorest made of blister steel to better ones made from shear and cast steel, but the price went up as well.
Dave - I've got pics of English made table knives showing how and where the bolster/tang of WI was welded to the blade. Steel was hard and expensive to make up until the 1860's so saving steel was important. Even today most makers of Damascus knives for instance usually weld a tang of iron of mild steel to the Damascus blades for the same reason. Cost was also the reason so many trade knives were made with short tangs.
As to being better off than the Euros who stayed "home" - remember many of the Colonials were either sent here from debtor's prison or were sent as indentured servants and many stayed poor for a very long time even after serving their time and many more ran away hoping for a better life (period papers are full of runaway asverts), but that better life was not always so easily obtained, even when they stole a grubstake from their master.
Quality of knives varied considerably and cheap trade knives were just that - as cheaply made as possible, although they did vary in quality from the poorest made of blister steel to better ones made from shear and cast steel, but the price went up as well.
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That's a good question as to if the type described by Bondaroy is common here during the frontier era.
I suspect(and i might be all wet, as it's only my opinion,and i don't have proof) many of the bolstered trade and table knives could be of this type,but archaeological reports don't seem to get into those details.
There's a native village site near my house in a farmed field where several styles and time frames of bolstered knife parts have been picked up,that i've seen, none of the cheap slab one piece (so called scalper)knives which according to the people "in the know" all through these chest beating, i'll be the judge of you, chat groups should be the common types. Even evidence of three antler crowned handles, but we all know from the chat group expert researchers, these types don't exist.
As an example of why i don't trust or rely,or befriend people i've never met in person, in these internet groups, note the responses in this thread, regarding Bob somebody, the relic collecter(i don't know him whatsoever), go to the fur trade relic section at Treasurenet.com, and check out all "thumbs up" ,"way to go", etc. comments to him, by the same respected poster i disagreed with above, here, but under his other name.
There's no respect on the internet,it's a crazy pretend place, i guess.
I suspect(and i might be all wet, as it's only my opinion,and i don't have proof) many of the bolstered trade and table knives could be of this type,but archaeological reports don't seem to get into those details.
There's a native village site near my house in a farmed field where several styles and time frames of bolstered knife parts have been picked up,that i've seen, none of the cheap slab one piece (so called scalper)knives which according to the people "in the know" all through these chest beating, i'll be the judge of you, chat groups should be the common types. Even evidence of three antler crowned handles, but we all know from the chat group expert researchers, these types don't exist.
As an example of why i don't trust or rely,or befriend people i've never met in person, in these internet groups, note the responses in this thread, regarding Bob somebody, the relic collecter(i don't know him whatsoever), go to the fur trade relic section at Treasurenet.com, and check out all "thumbs up" ,"way to go", etc. comments to him, by the same respected poster i disagreed with above, here, but under his other name.
There's no respect on the internet,it's a crazy pretend place, i guess.
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