Leather vs Lead Flint Wraps & Warranty

[dlemaster]

I realize that this topic has been dicussed before and both sides have their points.
What I am giving here is the stand on the issue by someone who most will agree is on of the finest lock makers in the country.
Mr. Jim Chambers gave this answer when asked about using leather vs lead for the wraps on flints. "Far be it for me to discourage commerce, but I think the lead wrap for flints is OK for military musket locks that have very substantial cocks. The only Siler cocks I've seen broken had lead around the flint. ...,the lead transfers too much of the shock back to the throat of the cock. Leather, on the other hand, acts as a kind of shock absorber, and leather is certainly more traditional. I've talked with L&R about this before, and if memory serves me correctly, they will not warrenty a broken cock if lead was used around the flint. Same goes for me."

So what ever you chose just be aware it may affect any warranty if your lock should be damaged.

Regards to all, Dave

 

[manyirons]

Gosh!

Ya might think build yer cocks better guys!! Mebbe invest cast cocks aint such a hot idea?

Thinkin those old locks with tha forged parts wer'nt breakin jus cause a little lead wrap.

 

[robinghewitt]

Mebbe invest cast cocks aint such a hot idea?

Maybe not, but they are very affordable :thumbsup:

 

[Many Klatch]

I tried lead as a flint wrap once. I found that the lead deforms just a little after each shot and my flint fell out in a timed shootoff for first place. Since then I use leather.

MK

 

[Ridge]

I've always used leather for the flint. I always thought it held better, plus I need something to do with all that scrap leather I have around here.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I won't get droan into this argument again, because I have said my piece before. Lead has to settle in around the smooth surfaces of a flint. You will need to retighten the cock after about 5 drops of the cock, but after that, it will stay very " put ". Once the lead has grabbed the flint, it will eliminate the shock absorber effect that Chambers seems to like, and I don't. The shock absorber just allows the edge to bounce back and pull bits of steel off the frizzen where they clog the edge of the flint. In 3 to five shots, you have misfires, because you have to stop and knapp the flint. Knapping always takes off about 20-30 shots of the flint's life, no matter how experienced you are. If you use lead, and the angle of the cock to the frizzen to lower edge of the flint is between 55 and 60 degrees at impact, the flint will self knapp with each shot, and the only knapping you may have to do if when you mount the flint in the frizzen the first time, or when you move a worn flint forward and reposition it so you get more shots out of it. You can reduce the tension on your mainspring, to about 10 lbs. and thereby reduce any pounding that might affect the cock, forged, or investment cast, and still get excellent sparks. Reduce the frizzen spring, too, to 2-3 lbs. polish the heck out of everything, check to make sure the heel of the frizzen's foot is nicely rounded so there is no movement of the spring when the frizzen is slowly opened, and you can have a properly functioning lock that does not dig grooves in the face of the frizzen, actually throws the sparks into your pan, and fires so fast, percussion shooters come by to ask you how you get a flintlock gun to shoot that fast.

 

[manyirons]

What Paul said +1, lead fer me please. Usta use leather until THA MANN (My Boss) showed me tha diff.

 

[manyirons]

Affordable isa Yugo. QUALITY is what i want, an thas a LOT more affordable than buyin junk over an over.

 

[roundball]

Mr. Jim Chambers gave this answer when asked about using leather vs lead for the wraps on flints.

"Far be it for me to discourage commerce, but I think the lead wrap for flints is OK for military musket locks that have very substantial cocks. The only Siler cocks I've seen broken had lead around the flint. ...,the lead transfers too much of the shock back to the throat of the cock. Leather, on the other hand, acts as a kind of shock absorber, and leather is certainly more traditional. I've talked with L&R about this before, and if memory serves me correctly, they will not warrenty a broken cock if lead was used around the flint. Same goes for me."

My sentiments as well...I could see where the Militia needed to pound a ball flat for a make-shift flint wrap in the military, out in the field, etc...but military aside, leather is traditional, it's what the settlers used, and works perfectly for me...
:thumbsup:

 

[Old Ironsights]

Well, my TC lock hasn't broken yet and sparks better/longer with Lead.

But then, with the TC "we don't care how you broke it" warrantee, I'm not all that worried ifit does break either. :thumbsup:

 

[dlemaster]

Again, I didn't bring this up again to rehash the various points made by both sides. I did this just to let everyone know it may affect any warranty issues.

As to forged lock parts vs cast steel. The last time I heard a hand forged lock would cost about $4000.00 which I believe is out of reach for most of us on this board. I have hand forged a cock, as well as other parts, from wrought iron, it is not the easiest thing to do in gunsmithing, and is far beyond the skill of most of todays builders. I do agree that forged is probably better but as Robin said cast is affordable.

Regards, Dave

 

[MSW]

ok- by way of dumb questions, i've been using the same beatup bit of leather in my TC for... well, it predates my eldest daughter who will be able to buy her own beer in a few weeks... and over the years, what with cleaning, humidity (mostly the later) the leather looks as thouogh it's been wetted down and clamped in that position... so if I were to do that deliberately, would that make a substantial difference?

 

[Mike Brooks]

Affordable isa Yugo. QUALITY is what i want, an thas a LOT more affordable than buyin junk over an over.

So, I'm assuming here that you have hand forged cocks on your flint guns, yet you're the one that believes in chrome moly for barrels as anything else is too weak. Seems an odd combination.... :bull:

 

[Gary]

I took the two day version of Jim's lock assembly class and he told us the same thing. Since then, it's leather for me. Thank you Marsh Jim.

 

[Mike Brooks]

What Paul said +1, lead fer me please. Usta use leather until THA MANN (My Boss) showed me tha diff.

So, you've tweaked my curiosity, who exactly is "THA MANN"? The way you praise this genius I'm begining to wonder if he isn't JC himself, and by JC I'm not refering to Jim Chambers..... :winking:

 

[manyirons]

Affordable isa Yugo. QUALITY is what i want, an thas a LOT more affordable than buyin junk over an over.

So, I'm assuming here that you have hand forged cocks on your flint guns, yet you're the one that believes in chrome moly for barrels as anything else is too weak. Seems an odd combination.... :bull:

Yup Bull yerself, or aint you in yer infinate experience heard of MACHINE-Forgin? As in say old M1911 frames? S&W Frames? It DONT have ta be IRON any one a chrome-moly alloys'll do real nice like. Forgins ta attin SHAPE an refine/align grain, finish machine after.

Now what were those costs agin? Drop real sudden like did they? :youcrazy:

 

[manyirons]

What Paul said +1, lead fer me please. Usta use leather until THA MANN (My Boss) showed me tha diff.

So, you've tweaked my curiosity, who exactly is "THA MANN"? The way you praise this genius I'm begining to wonder if he isn't JC himself, and by JC I'm not refering to Jim Chambers..... :winking:

He ramrods BIGIRON BARREL WORKS. THATS who. An sorry there Mike! din expect my humble opinions ta threaten yer ego er frighten ya!

Course now, ya could draw tha old cliqe in real close huddle an tell each other how great ya are.

Me, i dont respect yer puttin on airs.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Affordable isa Yugo. QUALITY is what i want, an thas a LOT more affordable than buyin junk over an over.

So, I'm assuming here that you have hand forged cocks on your flint guns, yet you're the one that believes in chrome moly for barrels as anything else is too weak. Seems an odd combination.... :bull:

Yup Bull yerself, or aint you in yer infinate experience heard of MACHINE-Forgin? As in say old M1911 frames? S&W Frames? It DONT have ta be IRON any one a chrome-moly alloys'll do real nice like. Forgins ta attin SHAPE an refine/align grain, finish machine after.

Now what were those costs agin? Drop real sudden like did they? :youcrazy:

You know, I'm having a real difficult time following your written word..... :shake: Some would consider it amusing, but I find it tedious and time consuming to follow.
The process you describe with machine forging is nearly identicle to the way 18th century lock parts were forged. I imagine the larger shops may have even used a trip hammer where smaller shops depended on a plain old hammer. Forging into a die isn't new technology. But, with machine forged parts, they have to be cleaned up and fitted by hand with a file, there in lies the advantage and cost savings in investment casting. You get clean parts that require little labor to be ready to be fitted to the lock.
High quality locks with machine forged parts are going to be incredibly expensive due to the labor involved in assembling forged parts. I'd guess you aren't going to be able to sell a high quality one that actually works at a profit for less than $1000. I'm guessing you'd have just as much time invested in the lock as you would in the rest of the gun. In other words , it could be done, but it would be totally impractical to produce a lock that most people could afford.

So, do you have one of these machine forged flint locks on your chrome molly barreled rifle? :haha:

 

[Mike Brooks]

What Paul said +1, lead fer me please. Usta use leather until THA MANN (My Boss) showed me tha diff.

So, you've tweaked my curiosity, who exactly is "THA MANN"? The way you praise this genius I'm begining to wonder if he isn't JC himself, and by JC I'm not refering to Jim Chambers..... :winking:

He ramrods BIGIRON BARREL WORKS. THATS who. An sorry there Mike! din expect my humble opinions ta threaten yer ego er frighten ya!

Course now, ya could draw tha old cliqe in real close huddle an tell each other how great ya are.

Me, i dont respect yer puttin on airs.

You'll have to fill me in on BIGIRON BARREL WORKS and who runs it. Being a realitive newcomer to this game I'm afraid I've never heard of the operation. Do they make alot of muzzleloading barrels?
My ego isn't damaged and I'm certainly not frightened, I'm just curious who "THA MANN" is so I can wiegh wether or not I should change everything I know about muzzleloading barrels and locks.
I don't huddle in "cliqes" and I don't put on airs, I just have a bad habit of calling out BS when I see it. :bull: You'll also notice my name is shown with everything I post, I've never been one to hide behinde a ficticious handle.
Gotta go get the chickens feed, see you folks later. :v

 

[dlemaster]

I would be interested in pictures of your machine forged flintlock. I went to the site you posted but found nothing concerning flintlocks. What was the tool up cost to produce a machine forged lock? Can they now be offered for $400.00?
A search for machine forged flintlocks didn't turn up anything.

Regards, Dave