Lined shooting bags

[Flintlock]

Is there a definite advantage to lining a shooting bag. I'm thinking, maybe less stretching after a weekend in the rain or a good dunking during a crossing. I'm thinking of restitching my old deerskin bag with maybe a pillow tick lining, but don't spend as much time trekking anymore, but do seem to have a raincloud over my head when I go anyplace.

 

[Stumpkiller]

My rifle bag is lined with a hand printed cotton,

Not really an advantage - though if you are desperate there you have patching material available.

It does keep the leather crumbs out of the other items.

 

[BrownBear]

...I'm thinking, maybe less stretching after a weekend in the rain or a good dunking during a crossing....

Never wetted mine during a crossing, but I've soaked it in the rain on many occasions. My first (unlined) was a source of pride until I got it wet on long day in the rain. It was made from thinner, fairly soft leather. And it stretched to about twice its original length over the course of the day! I lined it with ticking, and have never had another problem.

 

[Flintlock]

I started thinking to myself, that fabric, before and after the revolution in some area's if not many area's would be at a premium. Lining a bag with such scarce material might have been a rare thing to do for a frontiersman.

 

[Patocazador]

It seems the two main reasons that England wanted the American colonies was 1) Virginia for tobacco and 2) the southern states for cotton production.

I doubt that it was very long before that cotton was turned into fabric right here in the good old USA.

 

[crockett]

I think there are some definite advantages although they may not be pc. I did a fair amount of research. The reality is original cloth lined bags were rare but apparently a few existed. The lining was "basted" in place. In other words, I was told the edges of the bag had stitching that held the lining. If there were pockets inside the bag or exterior, decorative stitching- that also helped hold the lining in place. As such the lining made the inside of the bag light and easier to find small items.
I however decided to glue the lining to the leather. This creates a laminated material that functions completely different. If you use rubber cement and apply it evenly over the surface- it acts largely as a water barrier between the leather and the liner. Pillow ticking should be used as a liner. Ticking is stout enough to be used alone for a bag so as a laminate a very thin piece of leather can be used on the outside of the bag.
I tried to find how long ago barge cement (sort of the same thing) existed. I think it is pre-1840.
I then made a second bag using hide glue and soaking the outside leather in neatsfoot oil/wax. It would stand a fair rain. I then really soaked the leather and eventually it got wet enough for the hide glue to fail and the liner separate from the leather but I came to the conclusion if you used hide glue and waxed/oiled the leather you could be out in a light rain without harm to the bag. If barge cement is pc- that would be better but you must line up the parts correctly in making the laminate.
But, as I said, all the bag makers I spoke to on this subject contend the originals were just sewn in place- no glue.

 

[BrownBear]

...I tried to find how long ago barge cement (sort of the same thing) existed. I think it is pre-1840....

Now that's interesting! I grew up around it in leather shops and love it, but had no idea it went back so far. My great grandkids may be born with two heads, I've been sniffing the stuff so long. :wink:

 

[BrownBear]

...if you are desperate there you have patching material available.

Never thought of that, but you're right.

In fact, I have first hand experience. Needed a follow-up shot on a hunt, and learned I'd left out the patching material when loading the bag that morning. My dumb stunt, but it gave me the chance to use T-shirt material for a patch. Not recommended! :rotf:

 

[Artificer]

I know "Hide Glue" goes back at least to the 17th century and most likely long before in many of the furniture trades. So it was no doubt used when someone needed to glue leather, though not nearly as much as in woodworking.

Fish Gut glue goes back to the Egyptians, though I do not know how much, if any, it was used in more modern times.

Gus

 

[BrownBear]

Dunno about we European invaders, but the locals used pine pitch for glue on some jobs. At least out west here. Always wondered if colonists or explorers used it much.

 

[Artificer]

The Colony of Georgia made most of it's money in the early days supplying naval stores and masts. There was a LOT of Pine Pitch and Turpentine exported in the 18th century from there as well.

I have not read of pine pitch having been used in furniture or leather working trades as any kind of "normal/regular glue," like Hide Glue was used, though with the notable exception of pine pitch/asphaltum "cutler's resin or glue" for the wood handles of knives.
Gus

 

[BrownBear]

One of the guys when I was a kid on the ranch was elderly, but still came across the border each year (in the days before drugs and politicians) with his grown son and grandson to work for 8 months. He didn't do the hard scrabble work with the stock and long days on the range, but he took charge of the stock around the house and all the tack.

As a sideline, or in his spare time, he built saddles and sold them. Usually managed to turn out 2 per year, and they were works of art even though they weren't tooled. He used Barge on the leather, but made his own blend of pitch for assembling the trees from mesquite he cut in our yard and dried for several years. Really, really wish I had the money and sense to buy one of his saddles back in the day.

 

[Many Klatch]

I just checked barge cement was invented in 1930.

I have been messing about with pine pitch adhesive for arrow making. The recipe is to mix rendered pine pitch, powdered charcoal and beeswax over heat. This was used by the first people on this continent for thousands of years. It really makes for a fast setting waterproof adhesive. I guess if you used more beeswax than pine pitch it might be plenty flexible and usable for adhering a lining to the leather.

The hardest part is rendering the pine pitch. A double handful of pitch picked off the bark of trees won't make much more than a couple of tablespoons of rendered pitch. But boy, mix that with the charcoal and beeswax, it really makes an adhesive.

 

[Black Hand]

Why must one adhere the lining to the leather?

The lining is used to keep softer leather from stretching, which is accomplished mechanically. There is no need to adhere the two, other than perhaps in an effort to simplify the sewing. When I make lined pouches, I do not stick the leather & cloth together, rather keep everything aligned with black "bulldog" clips while sewing.

I would not recommend any sort of pitch adhesive for cloth or leather. It lacks the necessary flexibility.

 

[crockett]

Well as I said, to the best of my knowledge the original bags that had a lining did not glue it, the stitching held it in place. The glue creates a laminated material that is superior to the two materials individually. Personally, this might be one time to cheat a little and use rubber cement.

 

[Black Hand]

The big question is: Were there lined bags or are these a modern invention?
From what I have read, linings are modern...

 

[Flintlock]

Thank you black hand, this is what I was trying to get at in the first place. Lined bags look awful nice, but were they the norm. on the frontier.

 

[Black Hand]

Unfortunately, there don't appear to be many original bags in existence. Of those in existence, I believe they are primarily 19th century.

I made a lined bag before I had this information and continue to use it because it works well. It could very easily have been unlined and functioned well. You can't go wrong with a simple unlined bag.

When making a bag of soft leather, wetting and pre-stretching the leather before cutting may make considerable difference in the final product.

 

[Flintlock]

I'm hoping to alleviate any bag stretching now, by carrying a 42"X54" piece of lightweight oil cloth rolled up in my hunting bag ( not my shooting bag, but a cloth bag to carry my little tarp, turkey calls etc.) the oil cloth can keep off a little rain worn as a shawl, make a fast roof if needed, a little extra warmth or just something to sit my butt on when the ground is wet. I really should carry a early harpoon instead of a flintlock, it seems rain follows me.

 

[crockett]

Walks with gun: First, IF lined bags ever existed they were extremely rare. I never found any. I then spent some time talking with some of the more famous bag makers as I figured they probably (hopefully) had researched their craft. They sort of pointed out the obvious: very few original bags of any sort remain and most are held in museums, etc where all you have to work with is a photo- can't tell if there was a lining. If you can find a nice curator they may look inside the bag but if it is in a sealed display case- you are out of luck. In any event several told me they had seen original bags with a lining (how they knew the bag was original I don't know) and as I said, they claimed the lining was held in place with the stitches. On these stitches, if it was a plain bag there was the stitching around the perimeter. On the back panel there were stitches for the carrying strap ends. On the front panel, there was often a decorative stitching of a star, moon, or animal.
But- all in all, you are dealing with a rare item if in fact any originals actually existed. I am sort of putting my faith in the fact these craftsmen told me the truth- so second hand info.