lined shot pouches… why?

[George]

I notice that quite a few shot pouches being made today are lined, generally with cloth of some type. I don't understand the reason for that, can't think of any advantage of doing it. Is there some historic basis for its being done so frequently these days?

Spence

 

[Stophel]

I think it's simply because it's trendy. It's an all-walnut-brown, embroidered haversack, Wilde blanket sort of thing.

I personally cannot fathom why on earth anyone would want to do such a thing either. But they do. :idunno:

 

[BrownBear]

I think that's right.

I made a rigid leather shot flask, and the thing rattled like a diamondback when I walked, so I added a liner. It helped, but wasn't worth the trouble. Replaced the whole works with a softer leather pouch and all's well.

 

[LaBonte]

Lining leather with cloth is a pretty common practice throughout history in order to give especially lighter and/or softer leathers more body and to prevent stretch - while it may not sound like it would work it simply does and is still common practice amongst various leathercrafts. For instance stiff box toes on shoes/boots are often made by lining the leather with heavy canvas which is then varnished. Period leather breeches and pants were often lined at the waistband and sometimes farther down with cloth to prevent stretch. Check out books on historical leather such as those by John W Waterer for more info.
While it may not have been common practice on 18th/19th Century regular shot bags, I prefer mine lined with a lighter colored cloth in order to see the interior better than the darker leather. My linings are also generally made as a separate inner "bag" that is attached only at the opening so that it can be pulled out to clean when/if need be.

 

[omarick1948]

You see quite a few old originals with lining and some of the rumors are, that it helped keep the shape of the bag, along with keeping the leather from stretching to much! Never saw any advantage of it myself.

Rick :idunno:

 

[Curt]

Spence10 I make quiet a few pouchs out of bark tanned, cased ground hog and the belly side on a young one is thinner than the back side .I use hemp or fustian for a liner and it realy stiffens it up plus I think they just look better. Curt

 

[Rickey Brown]

if I use thinner or soft tanned leather like brain tan or oil tanned elk and buffalo I find it stiffens somewhat. Mainly it helps keep the inside cleaner and can be replaced if made as a separate bag only stitched at the top

 

[BillinOregon]

Curt, care to share an image or two of your cased groundhog bags? Very curious -- and glad to hear the critters are getting used.

 

[Jim Vatt]

Just like Bill, I'd like to see these bags. Making a bag out of a chuck has always appealed to me and, for some reason, I've never followed thru...please provide the added incentive!!

 

[Jim Vatt]

:surrender: Sorry, Horner, I guess I clicked on the wrong post for the reply.

 

[Rickey Brown]

never seen a groundhog one but have seen some out of Otter by Frank Chambers

 

[George]

You see quite a few old originals with lining ,,,,

Rick, I'm particularly interested in the historical aspects of this question, whether the old boys, especially in the 18th century, actually lined shot pouches. Other than published material about them, I have no access to original bags, and I'm not aware of any lined ones. Can you point me to any information about this, lined original bags or primary sources describing them? I'd be especially interested in early bags, not mountain man era or later.

Thanks.

Spence

 

[Stophel]

You see quite a few old originals with lining

I've heard this a few times, yet have never had an example offered. Like Spence, I would be quite interested to see early examples.

I suppose I can see some supposed advantage to lining a shot bag with cloth if the bag is made of soft, stretchy, spongy deer hide. (but really, does it stretch out THAT much???) but for oak tanned calf skin or cowhide (which the vast majority of old bags I know about are made from) it is simply not needed for that purpose.

And what would be the dates of these old bags that have cloth lining? Just because something was done in 1850 does not mean it was done in 1750, and vice versa. There are SO FEW original bags that MIGHT actually date pre-1800, and those few that I am aware of are calfskin/cowhide. I believe one is pigskin. (By the way, is there ANY source for oak tanned pigskin??? And I don't mean stuff that is split down to paper thinness. A full grain pigskin)

 

[BrownBear]

...(but really, does it stretch out THAT much???)....

Hang one waist high and walk out in the rain. Before you get home that thing is going to be swinging along below your knees. :rotf:

 

[LaBonte]

You see quite a few old originals with lining

I've heard this a few times, yet have never had an example offered. Like Spence, I would be quite interested to see early examples.

I suppose I can see some supposed advantage to lining a shot bag with cloth if the bag is made of soft, stretchy, spongy deer hide. (but really, does it stretch out THAT much???) but for oak tanned calf skin or cowhide (which the vast majority of old bags I know about are made from) it is simply not needed for that purpose.

And what would be the dates of these old bags that have cloth lining? Just because something was done in 1850 does not mean it was done in 1750, and vice versa. There are SO FEW original bags that MIGHT actually date pre-1800, and those few that I am aware of are calfskin/cowhide. I believe one is pigskin. (By the way, is there ANY source for oak tanned pigskin??? And I don't mean stuff that is split down to paper thinness. A full grain pigskin)

I too would like to see those 18th Century originals since as far as I know there are only maybe a dozen at most of bonafide American made shot bags from that period, one being the Lyman belt pouch which is unlined.

AS Brown Bear noted yes buckskin, elk hide, etc can stretch quite a bit if not pre-stretched before construction, and even then can stretch some albeit it is dependent on where and how the bag parts were cut from the hide - pieces cut from the neck and down along the back bone generally stretch less when cut so that the pieces are laid out from neck to tail with the top of the bag laid out length wise.

As far calf/cowhide not ever needing a lining I respectfully disagree and that's based on 50 years (45 as a pro) leather crafter. It can depend on the hide and quality of said hide as well as the end purpose. Even cuir bouilli armour made from very heavy hides from the Middle Ages often has a cloth lining in order to stabilize the shape. FWIW - I often make bags from 3/4 oz veg tanned cowhide and after the flat construction pre-stretch them to give more internal space and often get +/- 1.5" of stretch by simply wetting and shaping with a mold or lead weights (i.e. lead balls of whatever size I have on hand)

Now whether a plethora of 18th Century shot bags were made with linings is another questions that IMO still begs for an answer, but so far our database of originals as well as written documentation is so small it is difficult at best to make any kind of positive statement. Much would also depend on the maker - a trained leather smith or home brewed or something in between.

Spence one source I would suggest is contacting Colonial Williamsburg's leather shop and see if they may have more info.

 

[BillinOregon]

Spence, before I even gave much thought to historical authenticity, I made a couple of shooting bags without lining, then one or two lined with ticking, and found the latter to be a bit quieter, but that was about all.
Then I went completely non-historical and made a bag of heavy fustian with ticking lining, and heating the whole shebang and soaked it with beeswax. I was mighty proud o' that old-timey, water-repellent article until someone pointed out that he had never, ever heard of anything remotely like it in the historical record and I had to admit I completed the whole project based on "historical imagination." Good lesson. Still have the bag, as it's pretty sweet, and a reminder to THINK before cutting and stitching.

 

[matt denison]

We made a run of shot pouches a few years ago. We lined them mainly for two reasons:

1. The lining added some body to the supple leather we used and made them a bit more classy.

2. (most important) We sewed pockets into the lining so that the unsightly stitching wouldn't show through the outside of the leather bag.

As has been mentioned, leather will stretch. Cloth doesn't so the lining helps to hold the shape for much longer than just a leather bag. Just take a look at my primitive unlined brain tanned bag to prove my point.

 

[Curt]

Just like Bill, I'd like to see these bags. Making a bag out of a chuck has always appealed to me and, for some reason, I've never followed thru...please provide the added incentive!!

Martin I sent you a reply but it was deleted for some reason.Curt

 

[BillinOregon]

Curt makes drop-dead gorgeous stuff!