Lock malfunctioning.

[Grenadier1758]

It has a set trigger and a firing trigger. When I **** the hammer, it won't hold. I can feel it slip past the set trigger position and it stops at some kind of "half cocked" position. When this happens, if I pull hard on the firing trigger the hammer snaps down. I've actually shot it that way a few times but I don't like to shoot with a malfunctioning lock. More about the lock: don't know the manufacturer or the model number, and I don't know how to upload pictures onto this forum. Another thing that's happening is it when I pull back on the hammer, at about halfway it starts to drag like something is binding. I degreased the lock and scrubbed at it with a toothbrush and brake cleaning solvent trying to get any unseen bits of crud out of the way, but it didn't help. I have to admit that I think if I take this lock apart I'll never get it back together again. Oddly, the lock works better if I loosen the lock player's main screw so the entire lock can wiggle around a bit. I've shaved down the lock's mortise in case something is rubbing against the wood of the stock. It's not rubbing against the drum or the breech. Two questions: what is the proper lube for all those little moving parts parts in the lock, and two, any ideas at all about what might be going wrong? By looking I can't see that anything is bent or twisted. The main spring is still good and strong and I can't see any metal shavings or other signs of undo wear. Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks guys.

If you set the triggers, are you able to **** the hammer to full ****. I am some what curious about the feeling of dragging when the hammer is being pulled back.

Does the lock function properly when it is out of the stock?

Since the lock works better when the lock is loose in the mortise, something is rubbing internally in the lock mortise.

I second the recommendation that you take the rifle to a Muzzle loading gunsmith for evaluation.

Where are you located?

 

[Gooddaytoya!]

You know what gun you have, but we don't, as you don't mention it.

OK, more recently you let us know it is a percussion lock. That's a good start, but what gun is it?

To even identify what the cause of the problem is, one has to do things in an orderly fashion. I do it in this order:

1. Take the lock out of the gun and see if it is in working order. If not, then you are going to have to disassemble it to identify what is wrong and what you must fix. Here are a couple of links that will help on disassembly.

The Siler Lock assembly, at Muzzleloader Builder's Supply (muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com)

This link shows a brass drift that has been filed to fit the square of the tumbler, so you can use it to remove the tumbler from the hammer.
Tips & Tools with Fred Stutzenberger – Part 12 : Black Powder 411

BTW, one of many things that could cause the problem with your gun is that the fly, that is supposed to go in the tumbler, was lost by someone and they put the lock back together without it. Here is a picture of a tumbler WITH a fly in it and the blue arrow is pointing to the fly. (This is a left hand lock, so the tumbler will probably look backwards compared to the one in your gun.)
View attachment 95387




2. Now, if the lock works correctly outside the gun, then you know either the lock parts and particularly the sear tail/lever could be binding on the stock or other problems. Coat the tail of the sear with lipstick, reinstall it and cycle it a few times. Look inside the lock mortise of the stock and see if it rubs lipstick onto the wood. If so, you have to clear/cut away a little wood where it rubs until it no longer rubs.

3. Since the gun has set triggers, the set triggers could have been inletted too close to the lock and thereby not giving the Sear enough room to operated correctly.

Gus

 

[tallpine]

Does the lock function properly when it is out of the stock?

This is the first thing you need to know when troubleshooting lock problems

 

[Gooddaytoya!]

You know what gun you have, but we don't, as you don't mention it.

OK, more recently you let us know it is a percussion lock. That's a good start, but what gun is it?

To even identify what the cause of the problem is, one has to do things in an orderly fashion. I do it in this order:

1. Take the lock out of the gun and see if it is in working order. If not, then you are going to have to disassemble it to identify what is wrong and what you must fix. Here are a couple of links that will help on disassembly.

The Siler Lock assembly, at Muzzleloader Builder's Supply (muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com)

This link shows a brass drift that has been filed to fit the square of the tumbler, so you can use it to remove the tumbler from the hammer.
Tips & Tools with Fred Stutzenberger – Part 12 : Black Powder 411

BTW, one of many things that could cause the problem with your gun is that the fly, that is supposed to go in the tumbler, was lost by someone and they put the lock back together without it. Here is a picture of a tumbler WITH a fly in it and the blue arrow is pointing to the fly. (This is a left hand lock, so the tumbler will probably look backwards compared to the one in your gun.)
View attachment 95387




2. Now, if the lock works correctly outside the gun, then you know either the lock parts and particularly the sear tail/lever could be binding on the stock or other problems. Coat the tail of the sear with lipstick, reinstall it and cycle it a few times. Look inside the lock mortise of the stock and see if it rubs lipstick onto the wood. If so, you have to clear/cut away a little wood where it rubs until it no longer rubs.

3. Since the gun has set triggers, the set triggers could have been inletted too close to the lock and thereby not giving the Sear enough room to operated correctly.

Gus

Good observation. With the hammer down and the trigger unset, there should be a little play in both triggers to the trigger bar, then the same on half and full ****.
Make sure the trigger sets fully too.

To Artificer, I have to say that in almost every post I've made to you guys on this forum, I have admitted that I never did know the make and model of this rifle I have. There's absolutely no clue anywhere on the rifle. I've examined it carefully with a magnifying glass looking for whatever stampings a maker may have put on some part of the rifle. This makes me think the maker doesn't want anyone to know who he is because he puts out a crappy product. Even though I must say I like this 62 caliber rifle a lot anyway. Two of the things that were wrong with it to begin with were 1. The front of the barrel was milled totally flat, giving the edges of the bore very sharp corners which made it impossible to load a patched ball without tearing the patch. 2. The first 3 inches of the barrel were smooth (no rifling) and of a smaller diameter than the rest of the barrel - with the breech plug out I could load a 60 caliber ball with a suitable patch, but the front of the barrel needed a 58 caliber ball. A very nice gunsmith who was all set up with a variety of lathes reamed the front of the barrel for me and even managed to match the rifling pretty well, plus he put a bevel or whatever it's called at the very end of the barrel, which made loading patched balls possible. Lesson learned: never buy from an out-of-state seller who can't establish a satisfactory reputation to you. I just plain trusted this a-hole. I asked him to put a Malcolm scope on it, at least he did a good job with that, but it's off now and very lonely waiting to be used again. As for the lock I absolutely would never take it apart no matter what anybody says. But I did have some success with it by degreasing the heck out of it and warming it while the degreaser was on all the parts, then using aerosol brake parts cleaner to spray everything off the lock leaving it perfectly dry and non-greasy. Then I heated the lock to about 150° and submerged it in chainsaw oil, operating the trigger to make the parts rotate so the oil could get between all the tight fitting parts. Then I just rubbed the oil off of every place I could reach with cotton t-shirt cloth, using probes to push the cloth into all the tight corners and spaces. The result is that now the lock functions as if it were a single trigger lock with the set trigger having no function at all. It cocks and fires quite well enough now. We'll see how long that lasts. Above all, I sincerely appreciate all of your suggestions. I'm going to start searching for a replacement lock. But for now, it looks like at least I can shoot this rifle! .

 

[necchi]

It's not the lock,
Or the trigger,
As has already been explained to you,, it is the position of the trigger mechanism in the rifle stock as it relates to it's function to actuate the lock mechanism that is causing your problem.
Actual photo's of your rifle, (that you can not identify), may help those here that are experienced perhaps identify the rifle and common issues that trouble them.
Your descriptions are vague at best,, and you tell us you've had a scope mounted by a "gunsmith", and that he can't help you with making the gun shoot?
There is a ton of experience here friend,,
Help Us,, help you,, (?)

 

[Gooddaytoya!]

It's not the lock,
Or the trigger,
As has already been explained to you,, it is the position of the trigger mechanism in the rifle stock as it relates to it's function to actuate the lock mechanism that is causing your problem.
Actual photo's of your rifle, (that you can not identify), may help those here that are experienced...

Have you read my answers to the questions the other posters asked me in this topic? Have you read my comments in each post I made to this topic? The only information you are wondering about that hasn't been addressed is the relationship between the locations of the triggers and the lock, which is a new one on me, of which I have never read any information about and don't know where to look for it. But I sincerely thank you for trying to help me with this. As for the pictures, unfortunately I can't post them. I know someone who may be able to show me how to post my pictures to a discussion forum like this. As for the "gunsmith", he is out of state and is legally untouchable and unreachable, and besides he sent me such a crappy product that I wouldn't trust him with any gun, even though he or someone did a good job mounting the Malcolm telescopic sight. I didn't notice the mention of the spatial relationship between the triggers and the lock - it makes sense that that could be causing the problem. I have no way to know what that relationship should actually be. As I've come to understand it, the sears project horizontally from the top of the triggers and push up against certain specific spots on the bottom of the lock. I'm probably wrong about that. Unfortunately I can't give this project to a gunsmith who knows about these things, because I'm retired, and recently had back surgery, so I can't do small construction jobs for about the next year to earn money to have someone fix this thing. I do expect full recovery but it's coming very slowly. As I said in a recent previous post, at least I've got the lock to the point where if I don't mess with the set trigger, the main trigger makes the lock function like a normal single trigger lock (at least for the time being). As for your plea, I'd love to help you guys help me, I just don't know how.

 

[Artificer]

Is there a set screw between the triggers on your rifle? If so, unscrew it 6 turns and try the operation again. If that doesn't work and you can unscrew it 6 more turns, try it at that position. If that doesn't work, then it's not the set screw.

OK to test whether the double triggers have been inletted too high, you almost certainly have to remove the trigger guard first. Most of these are 1. pinned in the front and rear or 2. Have two screws to hold them in or 3. have a combination of a pin up front and screw in the rear. You have to have small drift pin punches to remove any pins and the correct size screw driver bit/s to remove the screws. If we had a picture of your gun, it would make it better to give aid on removing the trigger guard.

Next, you need to remove the set triggers, if they are not attached to the trigger guard. Once they are out of the stock, you can put shims between the set trigger plate and and stock (where they don't interfere with the screws or triggers) and fit inside the inlet. I would try shims about 1/16" first and then if that is not enough, try 1/8" thick. I use small diameter washers that fit inside the trigger plate inlet for this. Once you screw the trigger plate back into the stock with the same size shims front and back, one of these two thicknesses should stop the problem you are having.

Now sometimes one can grind file the two levers on set triggers when they are inletted too high, but for someone who is not experienced, I would not recommend it.

Not sure if you will be able to get the trigger guard back in place with the trigger plate set lower. If not, then you either have to clear the trigger guard for that added thickness in case of one held by pins, or if held by screws, it may not stick out from the stock too far.

Have you searched the internet for pictures of percussion guns like the one you have? If there is a copy of yours you can post a link to, it would help a lot.

Gus

 

[Rudyard]

It seems to me this gun needs a boyancy test .
Rudyard

 

[FlinterNick]

Sounds like a wood problem. Maybe the sear mortise isn’t deep enough ?

 

[Grenadier1758]

@Gooddaytoya!,

What we need here are some pictures. We need to see a picture of the lock. We need to see a picture of the triggers.

You have taken the lock out. I am assuming that the lock functions through the firing cycle. You have stated that if you don't set the triggers, the front trigger will release the sear so the hammer falls. Do you still feel the drag when you bring the hammer to full ****? You have also stated that if the lock bolts are loose, the lock can be placed in full **** and the trigger (front?) will release the hammer. To me, this implies that there is a wood to metal interference in the lock mortise.

With the lock out, you should be able to see the trigger levers through the hole in the lock mortise that the sear goes through. Unset, you should be able to see the set (rear) trigger lever. Pulling the rear trigger should lower that trigger lever. Does that lever catch the front trigger and hold it? Pulling the front trigger should release the rear lever. With the triggers unset, you should be able to see the front trigger lever rise when you pull the front trigger. I would have expected the lock to be cocked and held in position with the triggers set as that is when both levers are at the lowest position. Usually the problem is that the lock can't be cocked unless the triggers are set.

Is there a traditional muzzle loading gun club near you? Members would likely be glad to take a look at your rifle and offer better suggestions than we can over a keyboard. Hands on observation is much better than speculation.

While you are recovering from your back surgery, you will have time to get your rifle back in order.

I have several rifles that have few identifying markings on them as to who made it. I'm lucky because I know that I made that rifle. I need to put some identification on them, but that won't help much as I am not a very well known gun maker.

 

[Gooddaytoya!]

@Gooddaytoya!,

What we need here are some pictures. We need to see a picture of the lock. We need to see a picture of the triggers.

You have taken the lock out. I am assuming that the lock functions through the firing cycle. You have stated that if you don't set the triggers, the front trigger will release the sear so the hammer falls. Do you still feel the drag when you bring the hammer to full ****? You have also stated that if the lock bolts are loose, the lock can be placed in full **** and the trigger (front?) will release the hammer. To me, this implies that there is a wood to metal interference in the lock mortise.

With the lock out, you should be able to see the trigger levers through the hole in the lock mortise that the sear goes through. Unset, you should be able to see the set (rear) trigger lever. Pulling the rear trigger should lower that trigger lever. Does that lever catch the front trigger and hold it? Pulling the front trigger should release the rear lever. With the triggers unset, you should be able to see the front trigger lever rise when you pull the front trigger. I would have expected the lock to be cocked and held in position with the triggers set as that is when both levers are at the lowest position. Usually the problem is that the lock can't be cocked unless the triggers are set.

Is there a traditional muzzle loading gun club near you? Members would likely be glad to take a look at your rifle and offer better suggestions than we can over a keyboard. Hands on observation is much better than speculation.

While you are recovering from your back surgery, you will have time to get your rifle back in order.

I have several rifles that have few identifying markings on them as to who made it. I'm lucky because I know that I made that rifle. I need to put some identification on them, but that won't help much as I am not a very well known gun maker.

I'm currently trying to find someone who can show me how to move pictures to the muzzleloader discussion group. Very frustrating. The Verizon store might help me.

 

[Gooddaytoya!]

@Gooddaytoya!,

What we need here are some pictures. We need to see a picture of the lock. We need to see a picture of the triggers.

You have taken the lock out. I am assuming that the lock functions through the firing cycle. You have stated that if you don't set the triggers, the front trigger will release the sear so the hammer falls. Do you still feel the drag when you bring the hammer to full ****? You have also stated that if the lock bolts are loose, the lock can be placed in full **** and the trigger (front?) will release the hammer. To me, this implies that there is a wood to metal interference in the lock mortise.

With the lock out, you should be able to see the trigger levers through the hole in the lock mortise that the sear goes through. Unset, you should be able to see the set (rear) trigger lever. Pulling the rear trigger should lower that trigger lever. Does that lever catch the front trigger and hold it? Pulling the front trigger should release the rear lever. With the triggers unset, you should be able to see the front trigger lever rise when you pull the front trigger. I would have expected the lock to be cocked and held in position with the triggers set as that is when both levers are at the lowest position. Usually the problem is that the lock can't be cocked unless the triggers are set.

Is there a traditional muzzle loading gun club near you? Members would likely be glad to take a look at your rifle and offer better suggestions than we can over a keyboard. Hands on observation is much better than speculation.

While you are recovering from your back surgery, you will have time to get your rifle back in order.

I have several rifles that have few identifying markings on them as to who made it. I'm lucky because I know that I made that rifle. I need to put some identification on them, but that won't help much as I am not a very well known gun maker.

I'm looking for help to post my pictures to the muzzleloading forum. The Verizon store guys will probably help me. More accurately, I said the gun will fire normally with a pull on the main trigger if I don't first **** the set trigger. Since I cleaned the lock and lubricated it there is no more drag as I pull the hammer back. Also the lock doesn't have to be loose anymore, as I can tighten the screw for the lock plate and hold the lock firmly in place as long as the hammer is down when I install the lock, and now it functions smoothly albeit in it's new limited but adequate fashion. Also with the lock out, looking at the top of the triggers, it's clear that the set trigger hooks on to the main trigger, so that while the lock is out and I caught the set trigger the main trigger fire s the hammer at a very light touch, just the way I like it. There are lots of gun owners here on the western slope of the Sierras in California, but since California outlawed lead projectiles that pretty much puts in the target-only category and I assume interest in muzzle loading is falling off in this state. I appreciate a lot you trying to help me with this, but I need to stop talking about it now and save up for a gunsmith who knows what he's doing and doesn't have a two-year backlog. I live an hour and a half from Reno Nevada, maybe I'll have better luck over there. I'm going to take my time checking it out. In the meantime I'm going to blue this old rifle because it's kind of scuffed up. Cheers and happy shooting!

 

[54ball]

Even though I must say I like this 62 caliber rifle a lot anyway. Two of the things that were wrong with it to begin with were 1. The front of the barrel was milled totally flat, giving the edges of the bore very sharp corners which made it impossible to load a patched ball without tearing the patch. 2. The first 3 inches of the barrel were smooth (no rifling) and of a smaller diameter than the rest of the barrel - with the breech plug out I could load a 60 caliber ball with a suitable patch, but the front of the barrel needed a 58 caliber ball. A very nice gunsmith who was all set up with a variety of lathes reamed the front of the barrel for me and even managed to match the rifling pretty well, plus he put a bevel or whatever it's called at the very end of the barrel, which made loading patched balls possible.

I've been on here since 2004 and I can't think of a crazier issue.
From the comments above, I don't think you have a rifle, I think you have a Turkey Gun.
Look at this from Colerain Barrels....

"Turkey Choke Barrels

For many years now we have been producing turkey choke gun barrels. These barrels are for shot only due the tight restriction at the muzzle. We offer these in 20 gauge bore that restricts to 58....

The gun builder that started us down the road on these choked barrels said from the beginning that the firearm should have both a front and rear sight, not just a front bead."

A barrel like this could easily be mistaken for a rifle barrel. Notice it has front and rear sights. They may offer these octagonal....I don't know...

A very nice gunsmith who was all set up with a variety of lathes reamed the front of the barrel for me and even managed to match the rifling pretty well,

If he can match rifling 3" down into a barrel, he must be one hell of a gunsmith.
Secondly, There's no way I know of to only rifle a portion of the bore.
Reaming the choke down to match the smooth bore?...Yeah...this seems more likely.
I thing he or you meant "Bore" instead of Rifling.

I think you had a choked smoothbore turkey gun with rear sights and set triggers. Really it's the only thing that makes sense.
These Turkey barrels are not made for roundballs.

I thought it could be a false muzzle target rifle....Not so with a choked configuration.
I thought it could be a damaged or possible partially completed rifle blank...Unlikely, they are not made that way.

The "Turkey Gun" is the only thing that makes sense.

 

[Gooddaytoya!]

It never was a smooth bore. It has very nice rifling from the breach almost to the other end. Since it's a 36-in barrel, I could have shortened the barrel to get rid of that narrow smooth section, but the second gunmith told me he could get this rifle working. It is not the turkey rifle that you are talking about because turkey rifles don't have rifling.

 

[ZUG]

Sounds like you are the northern part of CA in which case I suggest visiting Rusty's Gunsmithing 1039 Highway 49 San Andreas, CA 95249 phone 209-754-3713. He has been in business there for a LONG time and knows his stuff with muzzle loading firearms.

 

[Gooddaytoya!]

Lock.

 

[Gooddaytoya!]

Lock.

No need to reply to this, I'm figuring out how to send pics.

 

[Gooddaytoya!]

Sounds like you are the northern part of CA in which case I suggest visiting Rusty's Gunsmithing 1039 Highway 49 San Andreas, CA 95249 phone 209-754-3713. He has been in business there for a LONG time and knows his stuff with muzzle loading firearms.

Wow that's close. Thank you for that!

 

[Jake2454]

I'm looking for help to post my pictures to the muzzleloading forum. The Verizon store guys will probably help me. More accurately, I said the gun will fire normally with a pull on the main trigger if I don't first **** the set trigger. Since I cleaned the lock and lubricated it there is no more drag as I pull the hammer back. Also the lock doesn't have to be loose anymore, as I can tighten the screw for the lock plate and hold the lock firmly in place as long as the hammer is down when I install the lock, and now it functions smoothly albeit in it's new limited but adequate fashion. Also with the lock out, looking at the top of the triggers, it's clear that the set trigger hooks on to the main trigger, so that while the lock is out and I caught the set trigger the main trigger fire s the hammer at a very light touch, just the way I like it. There are lots of gun owners here on the western slope of the Sierras in California, but since California outlawed lead projectiles that pretty much puts in the target-only category and I assume interest in muzzle loading is falling off in this state. I appreciate a lot you trying to help me with this, but I need to stop talking about it now and save up for a gunsmith who knows what he's doing and doesn't have a two-year backlog. I live an hour and a half from Reno Nevada, maybe I'll have better luck over there. I'm going to take my time checking it out. In the meantime I'm going to blue this old rifle because it's kind of scuffed up. Cheers and happy shooting!

if u can get to youtube go to the search and type muzzleloading forum.....there is a tutorial for uploading photos.....that may help.
regards

 

[Gooddaytoya!]

Lock.

I'm