Long Land 1730-1742 Brown Bess Questions

[FlinterNick]

Hi I’m working on a Brown Bess Ramrod for a LP.

What were the common woods used for Brown Bess’s?

We’re there any markings on the wooden ramrods?

We’re the ends tipped at all ? Slotted for cleaning etc. ?

Was the sheet brass tip peened over on the tip or was there a circular cap ?

Thanks

 

[dave_person]

Hi Nick,
The rods are ash. Get good 7/16" ash dowels with grain running as full length as possible. Baird Brothers Fine Hardwoods sells 48" ash dowels. Taper the rod to fit the pipes but leave a little swell at the muzzle end. The ramrod caps were made from thin (0.032") sheet brass. They appear to be made in two ways. One was to peen the entire cap from sheet over a form. At least one side had to be split for a seam, which was soldered. However, they were also made with separate brass discs for the ends. The sheet is cut and rolled on a tapered form creating the tapered cylinder and the seam is soldered. Then a brass disc is soldered on the top. By the time I get to making a rod for a Bess, I am tired of the project and just want to get it done so I rarely make a tip. I buy the commercial cast tips then using a jewelers saw, I cut a straight groove up on side. I then take low temp solder and fill the groove. It ends up looking exactly like a soldered seam. Then I round the top very slightly and round over any sharp edges. The result is a very good alternative to forming one from sheet. To install a tip properly, turn down the rod so the tip fits easily on the rod. Then slot the end of the rod for a tiny thin wooden wedge like that for an axe handle. Cut a thin wedge that fits inside the diameter of the cap and is a little short of the slot and place it in the slot with the end sticking up a little. Put glue on the wood, slid on the cap and tap it home. The wedge will fill the space and hold the cap on tightly. I do not know what ordnance put on the other ends of wooden rods as I've never read any description nor examined an original with an original wooden rod. Any I've seen were modern replacements and had no tips or slits on the bottom ends. It may be that ordnance did not have tips on the ends and soldiers used separate company issued cleaning rods when servicing their guns. On Besses I've made, I usually install a modern tip for a cleaning jag, which gives the rod more utility unless he specifies otherwise. I am not aware there were any markings on wooden rods as they were generic, expendable, and frequently replaced. I don't think they were individually fitted.

dave

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Here is the ramrod tip from my pattern 1760 light infantry fusil. It is a commercial cast tip but I doctored it to look like rough formed sheet brass. In the first photo you can see the seam cut into the brass and filled with solder. Then the tip is peened to round over the edges around the crown and create dimples as well as create some pliers or vise marks where it might have ben squeezed to shape. As you can see, the rod is ash.

dave

 

[chiller]

My past Brown Bess (sold several years ago) was steel with the end going in first below the barrel had threads cut on the end to allow screwing on a bullet puller and worm, the other end was flared. Never had to worry about breakage.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Chiller,
Nick is creating a pattern Bess that was issued with wooden rods so details of steel ones don't really apply.

dave

 

[chiller]

Hi Chiller,
Nick is creating a pattern Bess that was issued with wooden rods so details of steel ones don't really apply.

dave

Yes, but a steel ram rod is good to have if you do a lot of range shooting.

 

[Rifleman1776]

My past Brown Bess (sold several years ago) was steel with the end going in first below the barrel had threads cut on the end to allow screwing on a bullet puller and worm, the other end was flared. Never had to worry about breakage.

Same with my Navy Arms/Pedersoli 1976 kit built BB. Interesting to know which originals had wood and other steel.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Frank,
Good to hear from you!!! The earliest pattern Brown Besses (1730, 1730/40, and 1742) were all originally designed and issued for wooden rods. During their working life, many were altered to use metal rammers by including a bushing in the forward pipes and a retaining spring in the rear pipe. Remember the pipes and ramrod channel were large for wooden rods so they had to be reduced in diameter for the smaller steel rammers. The alteration never worked really well and the retaining spring often broke. In 1748, the British issued an upgraded version of the pattern 1742 that was lightened, had a cast brass nose cap and was designed for a steel rammer. As such it had smaller diameter pipes and ramrod channel. None of those pattern 1748s appear to have been issued to troops in North America. The workhorse guns of the French and Indian war were the pattern 1730/40s and 1742, some with wooden rods, some converted to steel. The pattern 1756, which is the long land pattern most folks think of was not a F&I war gun. It was mostly used in North America during out Rev War. It has the long trumpet forward pipe, straighter lock, brass nose cap and steel rod. All later patterns (marine and militia musket, 1769 [sort of what the Pedersoli Bess is], 1777, and India pattern muskets had steel rammers. I believe Nick wants to make a gun that is historically correct for early North American use so he needs a pattern with a wooden rod but he could convert it to steel and add a brass nose band.


dave

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
The link below shows my recreated pattern 1730/40 Bess that would have served in North America during the French and Indian War.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...rown-bess-almost-ready-for-inspection.123947/It has a wood rod, upgraded double bridled lock, sheet brass nosecap and the stronger trigger guard adopted for all later patterns of Brown Besses. Many of these would also have been converted to use steel rammers but the conversion was never very satisfactory.

dave

 

[dd832]

Here's a couple of photos from College Hill Arsenal of an 1742 - I don't know if the ramrod is original.


Here's College Hill's cover photo of the 1742


Mike

 

[dave_person]

Hi dd832,
Great photos of a 1742. The rod is almost certainly a modern replacement with a cast tip.
Understandably, original rods are really rare.
dave

 

[Feltwad]

Dave I have come across several of these wood ramrods with this type of tip but most were fitted with a steel corkscrew worm on the opposite end .I could never think that these would pull a ball because the wood is so thin and would easily twist off I would say that this type of rod was exchanged for a steel one which also had the risk of a spark when ramming home a ball This type of worm was also used on the early flintlock sporting guns but then they had only to pull a wad if needed.
Feltwad

 

[Grenadier1758]

The early metal rammers to replace the wooden rammers were iron. They were relatively soft and prone to bending. Of course, being soft, there was no likelihood of drawing a spark. As steel improved, the steel rammers replaced the wood rammers. While stronger than the previous iron rammers, these steel rammers were still too soft to make sparks. This was reported in the artificer's regiments of several British regiments during the F&I War.

 

[toot]

Hi,
Here is the ramrod tip from my pattern 1760 light infantry fusil. It is a commercial cast tip but I doctored it to look like rough formed sheet brass. In the first photo you can see the seam cut into the brass and filled with solder. Then the tip is peened to round over the edges around the crown and create dimples as well as create some pliers or vise marks where it might have ben squeezed to shape. As you can see, the rod is ash.

dave

rely neat.

 

[toot]

Dave I have come across several of these wood ramrods with this type of tip but most were fitted with a steel corkscrew worm on the opposite end .I could never think that these would pull a ball because the wood is so thin and would easily twist off I would say that this type of rod was exchanged for a steel one which also had the risk of a spark when ramming home a ball This type of worm was also used on the early flintlock sporting guns but then they had only to pull a wad if needed.
FeltwadView attachment 47496

I beleave so.

 

[FlinterNick]

Thanks everyone for the tips.

So far so good on the rod, I got the tapper at the end 5/16 for 1 inch then up to 3/8 to fit the pipes and then up to a 7/16 flare.

To fit the brass sheet metal tip I’m using 30 gauge sheet brass and forming over the end of the rod. Using a brass flat head nail as the head.

I’ve found that filing a slight bevel on each opposite fold was helpful for forming and soldering.

Made three rods in total, one hickory with a turned tip from Track of the Wolf and brass rear tip for attachments (not historical but useful).

A second rod with the sheet brass tip, made of ash.

A third rod tapered from 3/8 up to a 1/2” trumpet shaped with no brass tip, rounded off, to represent a n older bess for militia use.

 

[FlinterNick]

Hi Frank,
Good to hear from you!!! The earliest pattern Brown Besses (1730, 1730/40, and 1742) were all originally designed and issued for wooden rods. During their working life, many were altered to use metal rammers by including a bushing in the forward pipes and a retaining spring in the rear pipe. Remember the pipes and ramrod channel were large for wooden rods so they had to be reduced in diameter for the smaller steel rammers. The alteration never worked really well and the retaining spring often broke. In 1748, the British issued an upgraded version of the pattern 1742 that was lightened, had a cast brass nose cap and was designed for a steel rammer. As such it had smaller diameter pipes and ramrod channel. None of those pattern 1748s appear to have been issued to troops in North America. The workhorse guns of the French and Indian war were the pattern 1730/40s and 1742, some with wooden rods, some converted to steel. The pattern 1756, which is the long land pattern most folks think of was not a F&I war gun. It was mostly used in North America during out Rev War. It has the long trumpet forward pipe, straighter lock, brass nose cap and steel rod. All later patterns (marine and militia musket, 1769 [sort of what the Pedersoli Bess is], 1777, and India pattern muskets had steel rammers. I believe Nick wants to make a gun that is historically correct for early North American use so he needs a pattern with a wooden rod but he could convert it to steel and add a brass nose band.


dave

I can see how the steel rammer replacement wouldn’t work too well in a gunstock that was designed for a full 3/8ths rod, the steel rammers were around 1/4 or smaller in diameter, the only way to make a steel rod work better was to are it 5/16 or 3/8 in diameter which would have made the gun significantly heavier with a thick iron rod.

 

[FlinterNick]

Hi dd832,
Great photos of a 1742. The rod is almost certainly a modern replacement with a cast tip.
Understandably, original rods are really rare.
dave

Dave, did any of the original rods have a brass rear tip? We’re they sealed up to keep the grain from splitting off ?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Yes, but a steel ram rod is good to have if you do a lot of range shooting.

A steel rammer is good to have for your LLP Bess, if you do more than hang it on the wall. There was a reason they switched over to metal rammers folks!

LD

 

[dave_person]

Hi Nick,
I answered your question about the narrow end of the ramrod in my first post. I do not know what they did on the original wooden rods. Feltwad's photo of tow worms and ferrules is what I did on some fowlers and pistols I've built but I've never seen an original Bess wooden rod. All I've examined were replacements (understandably) and had no ferrules or tips on the narrow ends. I've also never read any description of the original rods that discussed the narrow end.

dave