Louis and Clark's Short Rifle?

[Zonie]

In another post, comments were made which maintained that the Rifles carried on the Louis and Clark expedition were not the Harper's Ferry 1803 Rifle.
It has been mentioned by some that the 1803 rifle was not made until after Louis and Clark had gone West.
Unfortunatly, Louis did not describe what rifles were taken on their epic journey so we are forced to speculate.
An article I recently re-read brings up some interesting facts:

There are at least 2 1803 rifles which have Harper Ferry locks dated 1803 in existence.
According to Flayderman's, they are worth 100 percent more than the 1803 style rifles with locks dated 1804.
One of these rifles is in the Winchester Gun Museum in Cody, Wyoming. Their barrel length is about 33 inches.

Of course, there were also prototypes made in early 1803 which prompted Henry Dearborn, then Secretary of War, to authorize full production on May 25th 1803. Dearborn had authorized Harper's Ferry to build Louis's guns 3 months earlier on March 14, 1803 although what type of guns were to be made wasn't mentioned.

In a letter dated July 8 1803, a little over a month after Harper's Ferry recieved authorization to go into full production of the 1803 rifle, Louis wrote:
"...Yesterday I shot my guns and examined the several articles which had been manufactured for me at this place; they appear to be well executed"

There are several references to a "short rifle" made by Meriwether Louis and Sgt John Ordway.


Ordway's quote was:
"Drewyer and Shannon Sent on a head to go to the villages of the pell-oll-pellow nation they took one of the Short rifles in order to git a pilot if possable to go over the mount with us."

Lewis's Journal's April 12th entry said:
"...we caused all the men who had short rifles to carry them in order to be prepared for the natives should they make any attempts to rob or injure them..."

Louis also made mention of a Short Rifle in his comments concerning Pvt. Peter Cruzattes gun in describing his being shot during an elk hunt:

"...the ball had lodged in my breeches which I knew to be the ball of the short rifles such as that he had"

This information is from a very interesting article by Michael H. Maggelet titled "The Short Rifles of the Lewis and Clark Expedition" published in the March/April issue of MUZZLELOADER magazine.
In this article, the author mentions that the 1803 rifle was often refered to as a "Short Rifle" in official Military correspondence. The practice of describing weapons by date didn't become common until the 1830s.

This article and the quotes does bring up a very good questions, to wit:

If the rifles Louis and Clark carried with them were the 1792 Longrifles ( which had 38 inch long barrels (Flyderman's) to 44 inch long barrels (Robert Reillys "U.S. Martial Flintlocks")) then what were these "Short Rifles" if not very early 1803 rifles made in late 1803?

Why did they refer to some of their rifles as "Short Rifles" if not to differentiate them from Long Rifles?

Questions, questions. :hmm:

I personally have long believed that they carried pre-production 1803 rifles along with some of the production 1792 Longrifles. After all, I would believe Louis would have taken the very latest style of rifles if he had the opportunity to do so and based on the above dates it would seem that he did.
I have also long thought that the shorter 1803 model would have been a less cumbersome gun to carry on a long arduous trip than the 1792 model or other large caliber rifles that were available at the time. :hmm:

 

Very interesting share of facts Zonie. It appears that both the '94 longrifle camp and the early 1803 Harpers Ferry short rifle camp are both right. Now they can quit feuding back and forth. :rotf: It appears to me that both models were taken as well as other firearms as well on the trip to the Pacific. Thanks for the info.
Don

 

[paulvallandigham]

Very interesting information, but were these guns then not Flintlocks, rather than Percussion? If so, should this not be discussed under the heading, " Flintlocks ", here? I have been marveling that there is even a dispute about what they carried, with some people claiming" there are no firearms from the expedition existing at all", when, as your research notes, there are at least two guns in one museum. This letter from Louis certainly sheds daylight on the length of barrel, and model ordered for the expedition, and squelches those who claim that the expedition only had Model 1792 rifles or muskets, instead of the 1803 Harper's Ferry rifles. Remember, that only recently have gun companies actually numbered a model gun after the year it actually begins manufacturing them. Even the Winchester Model 94 was not available until 1985! Some manufacturers post dated their models so they would be sure to have completed guns for sale then, just as auto makers bring out next year's models in August!

 

[Zonie]

Paul: I didn't say the 1803's that were made in 1803 were part of Lewis & Clarks guns.
I was just pointing out that there were guns of that model made in 1803. Some of the people that say that the 1792 was the only rifle available from Harper's Ferry at that time seem to ignore this fact.

As far as the guns actually carried on the expedition go, they were auctioned off when they returned and I have not heard of any guns which are documented as having been part of the expedition (except for their air rifle).

Cooner54: Yes, there is no doubt that they carried other firearms, the most likely being the 1795 .69 cal musket.
Lewis had ordered 15 gun slings and as far as I can determine, the 1792 and the 1803 rifles did not have provisions for slings.

Paul: You are correct about this post being in the wrong place. I will get it moved to the Flintlock Forum. :grin:

 

[Doc Arroyo]

Lewis had ordered 15 gun slings and as far as I can determine, the 1792 and the 1803 rifles did not have provisions for slings.

Zonie-

That is why many folks have a third opinion. Lewis hand picked from the stores at Harper's Ferry the year before the 1803 was made. These 1792 rifles were to be made ship shape and fitted with spare locks. The barrels may have been shortened, and sling swivels added at that time.

I thought that Lewis also ordered a few rifles while in Lancaster. If he purchased a number of standard civilian rifles, then a 1792 shortened to 36 or 38" would be a "short rifle".

To make matters more confused, Clark brought a privately owned rifle that he refers to as his "Short rifle". It may have been a small bore rifle made by a gunsmith named Short.

Fun thoughts...too bad we will robably never know the answer!

 

[redwing]

Doc you are little confused. Clark brought along a rifle he refered to as the Small Rifle. Small was a gun biulder in Vincennes now Indiana. Small was an old friend of the Clarks. Or was it because it was a small caliber. History leaves us hanging on that one. At any rate this personal rifle was his Small Rifle not Short rifle. He relates at one point having the bore freshed on the small rifle, during the trek. :thumbsup:

 

[bwhoffman]

All the posts in response to Zonie's original post are quite vast. While an expert by no means, I have been hooked up with a very rich, very knowledgable gentleman who has made the lewis and clark guns a big part of his life and collection.
While no positive proof seems to exist, historians are leaning towards a model 1800 as the possible short rifle. An excellent article exists in a magazine put out by the "Lewis and Clark trail heritage foundation, specifically the may 2006 issue, volume 32 #2, pages 10 thru 21.
This covers all the firearms, swivel guns, cannons and the air rifle. There is also an extensive article solely on the short rifle.
This may be available online at[url] lewisandclark.org[/url].

As I stated, I am not an expert, just an interested person and found this to answer a lot of issues...

Brett

 

[Old Ironsights]

Don't forget that they carried an assault rifle with them...

A 22 shot .46 caliber repeating Air Rifle of Austrian make called the Girondi. That's 22 shots without reloading anything, each pushing about 900 - 1100 fps IIRC.

It is mentioned in the Logs as being damaged during and repaired after a boating accident.

See Louis and Clark Assault Rifle for long and detailed details.

 

[Slamfire]

My opinon ia that being ordered to put the 1803 rifle into production and the necessary tooling up for large scale production don't happen at the same time. Were some Model 1803s made in 1803? Probably, there is always some production while working out the bugs on the line. Were any with Lewis and Clark? Doubtful, at best. :hmm:

 

[54ball]

We will never know for sure what the Corps of Discovery carried. All we can do is research the time and make the best guess we can. I for one belive L & C carried some rifles that were 1803s or earlier versions of an 1803 type rifle. An above post mentions the Model 1800. What was it? What did it look like?
I am gonna give my reasons for favoring the 03 type over the contract rifles. The US was surrounded by forein powers, Spain to the south and southwest, England to the north and north west and France to the west. Prior to the Louisiana Purchase any encroachment of these territories by the U.S. Military would be looked on as an act of agression or espionage. Do you think the US never sent an expedition west before the LP? I think they did. Official records of such expeditions would be nill because they were clandestine. It would not be good to be caught in forein territory with U.S. stamped all over your equipment. The model of 1800 may been an armory produced rifle but still an unofficial U.S. arm. Another angle, 1798, "How did the "hunting trip" go Captain?" "Well, very well Sir, West of the Meessuri lies a great plain abundant with game and fowl. To the far west beyond the plain, mountains great mountains. Might I add that our arms were of little effect on some of the game and savages we encountered. We were attacked by a great bear that would make three of the largest bear I encountered in Tennessee. May I suggest an arm, shorter barrel 28 balls to the pound, extra locks that will interchange and it must take down easy for wiping"
If I remember right it is said Lewis got 15 special rifles from Harpers Ferry extra locks that would interchange slings and number of muskets and other rifles. How long would it have taken them to shorten, bore from 50 to 54, make sure all 15 were interchangable with the extra locks they supplied ? Remember the contract rifles were orignally made by other makers so interchangablity would be a problem. It would not take long at all if said rifles were already in production.
If the short rifles were indeed modified contract rifles what do you get when you shorten a long rifle to a 33 inch barrel place a standard lock, make it a halfstock with a single key for easy cleaning file the flats to round to save weight to make up for the under rib. An 1803 HF?
It has always seemed strange to me that the perfect rifle for the expedition, so perfect in fact it was 20 years ahead of its time, becomes the first official U.S.rifle 6 months after the expedition leaves and they did not carry one or one like it?

 

[Cruzatte]

Zonie,
[Apologies if this has been heretofore stated. I haven't read all the posts] According to Stephen Allie, Curator of the Frontier Army Museum, Ft. Leavenworth, Leavenworth, KS., the short rifles Lewis refers to are cut down M1792 contract rifles. They were cut down for ease of handling while aboard keelboats, since Lewis anticipated boating all the way up the Missouri to its headwaters, and then executing a short portage to the headwaters of the Columbia River, thence to the Pacific.

Cruzatte

 

[Old Ironsights]

Don't forget that they carried an assault rifle with them...

A 22 shot .46 caliber repeating Air Rifle of Austrian make called the Girondi. That's 22 shots without reloading anything, each pushing about 900 - 1100 fps IIRC.

It is mentioned in the Logs as being damaged during and repaired after a boating accident.

See Louis and Clark Assault Rifle for long and detailed details.

Here is another cite: The Sole Description of the Lewis Airgun

Recent publication (Smith and Swick, 1997) of a small passage in a little known travel diary journal of a Thomas Rodney, who was a day visitor to Captain Meriwether Lewis while he was traveling down the Ohio River at Wheeling, Ohio in September of 1803, caused new thinking about the Lewis airgun. The passage reads:

“Visited Captain Lewess barge. He shewed us his air gun which fired 22 times at one charge. He shewed us the mode of charging her and then loaded with 12 balls which he intended to fire one at a time; but she by some means lost the whole charge of air at the first fire. He charged her again and then she fired twice. He then found the cause and in some measure prevented the airs escaping, and then she fired seven times; but when in perfect order she fires 22 times in a minute. All the balls are put at once into a short side barrel and are then droped into the chamber of the gun one at a time by moving a spring; and when the triger is pulled just so much air escapes out of the air bag which forms the britch of the gun as serves for one ball. It is a curious peice of workmanship not easily discribed and therefore I omit attempting it.”

On August 6, 1805, while ascending the Jefferson River, three of the canoes swamped while navigating rapids. At least one of them struck rocks and nearly crushed Private Whitehouse. There was considerable loss and much damage to equipment, which appears to have included the air rifle. In his journal entry for the next day, Captain Lewis wrote, "my air gun was out of order and her sights had been removed by some accedent I put her in order and regulated her. She shot again as well as she ever did." indicate that the airgun was among the damaged items. Although the expedition airgun surely would have been wrapped in a manny cloth, or similar cover, it could have sustained severe damage by impact against stream rocks.

Lewis had recorded on June 9, 1805 (probably June 10, 1805) that the mainspring on his airgun was repaired[16].He wrote that "Shields renewed the main Spring of my air gun we have been much indebted to the ingenuity of this man on many occasions, without having served any regular apprenticeship to any trade, he makes his own tools principally and works extremely well in either wood or metal..."

 

[Zonie]

"...According to Stephen Allie, Curator of the Frontier Army Museum, Ft. Leavenworth, Leavenworth, KS., the short rifles Lewis refers to are cut down M1792 contract rifles...."
_____________________
I don't doubt in the slightest that Mr Allie and a vast number of other respected Curators and Historians feel this way.
This theory has been maintained by many for a number of years and will continue to be believed for years to come.

Something to think about though:
Harper's Ferry did not make the 1792 Contract Rifles. They were made by private companys such as C.Gumpf, J. Dickert, H. DeHuff and others.
The bore size of the 1792 rifles was not uniform varying between .50 and .60 caliber depending on the gun.

Yes, Harper's Ferry could have just modified some existing rifles, however, noting that Henry Dearborns letter of March 14, 1803 says:
"You will be pleased to make (italics added) such arms & Iron work..." coupled with the need for the rifles involved to have fully interchangable locks (which was not the case with the Contract Rifles) does make a good arguement, in my opinion for newly made arms.

At that time, Harper's Ferry was producing the 1795 Musket however it is obvious that they had indeed made prototype 1803's.

I feel that the making of a very few (15) 1803 Rifles for Lewis would have been a relatively easy task, especially in light of the fact that they were tooling up for a full production of the gun.

Based on the surviving rifles which have "1803" stamped on the locks along with matching serial numbers there can be little doubt that Harper's Ferry had produced full production 1803's prior to 1804.

 

[John Strong]

I found this information on a web site selling parts sets for the Lewis and Clark rifles. Hope it helps.
The U.S. Contract Rifle, Pattern of 1792, was obtained for the federal government in two purchases by General Edward Hand, former commander of the Continental Rifle Regiment of 1776, and an officer of considerable frontier experience.

After their fabrication in Lancaster and York, Pennsylvania, Hand sent about 400 of the rifles to Cumberland, Maryland, to equip Major General Daniel Morgan's Virginia Riflemen during the Whiskey Rebellion of 1794. At the end of this short-lived uprising, the rifles were turned in and stored at the federal arsenal at New London, Virginia. In 1801 they were transferred to the new armory at Harpers Ferry.

In March 1803, Captain Meriwether Lewis, 1st U.S. Infantry, ordered fifteen rifles removed from stores at Harper Ferry and prepared for the upcoming voyage of discovery. Lewis specified that new locks be fitted to the rifles and that a number of interchangeable spare locks and components be produced. In addition, Lewis ordered that the rifles be equipped with swivels to accept the slings which he obtained in Philadelphia. This proved a practical adaptation for a long trek through unknown terrain.

Understandably, the new lock design was used on the prototype
1803 half-stock Harpers Ferry rifle ordered by Henry Dearborn just weeks after Lewis' rifles were readied for the "Corps of Discovery."

SPECIFICATIONS:
Per instructions of Secretary of War Henry Knox in 1792, and as modified by Meriwether Lewis in 1803.

Barrel three feet six inches in length, to carry Ball 40 to the pound (.49 caliber.)
Box release on the top of the stock through the buttplate.
Stock of seasoned Maple. Brass mounted.
Lock (not included)
Sling swivels suitable for carrying the military pattern sling available to Lewis at the arsenal in Philadelphia.
FOR FURTHER READING:
Frank A. Tait, "The U.S. Contract Rifle Pattern of 1792," MAN AT ARMS Magazine, Vol. 21, No. 3, May/June 1999, pp. 33-45.

Back to 1803 "Lewis & Clark" Expedition Rifle Page

 

[faw3]

Don't forget that they carried an assault rifle with them...

A 22 shot .46 caliber repeating Air Rifle of Austrian make called the Girondi. That's 22 shots without reloading anything, each pushing about 900 - 1100 fps IIRC I couldnt get the pics to come up, would like to see that one, at 22 shots a min you could really wow somethings,people ect. Fred :hatsoff:

 

[Doc Arroyo]

Doc you are little confused. :thumbsup:

Yep, we need a Smilie that whacks itself in the forehead! Thanks for straightin me out! :hatsoff:

 

[Zonie]

Some thoughts on the information utseabeescw found.

Of course, this is just my opinion and it is open to disagreement by one and all.
If I may quote out of context:

"...Lewis...ordered fifteen rifles removed from stores at Harper Ferry..."

I have not heard of any written documentation which says that Lewis specifically asked for existing rifles in storage to be used for his trip. If the existing rifles were used they would, IMO not qualify as the "Short Rifles".

"...Lewis specified that new locks be fitted to the rifles..."

Although it is known that Lewis needed replacement locks and that they had to be interchangable, is there any documentation which clearly says he wanted the existing rifles in stores to be reworked to use the new lock pattern?

"...Lewis ordered that the rifles be equipped with swivels..."

Again, is there any documentation which says that the rifles would need to have sling swivels?
Of course, these would be handy to have but from what I've learned we don't know if his rifles had swivels or not. We only know he ordered slings and these easily could have been intended for use with the Muskets they took. (Louis did include Musket Flints in the equipment list.)

There is a possibility that Louis did in fact have some of the existing rifles reworked to take the new 1803 locks so that interchangability would exist but that does not preclude his having some early 1803 rifles with him.

It would give him and others on the trip a reason to differentiate between the rifles by calling some of them "Short Rifles".

That would also explain why Louis made the comment "...the ball to be the ball of the short rifles such that he had." because if the information posted above is correct, the Contract rifles were .50 caliber while the 1803 rifles were .54 caliber.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that this quote by Louis adds credence to there having been 1803 rifles (or some form of short rifle of uncommon caliber) on their voyage.

zonie

 

[John Strong]

I don't know how accurate this is, but here is a link that might interest you. Great post Zonie![url] www.beemans.net/Lewis & Clark Airgun.htm[/url]

 

[faw3]

Thanks for that site , sure helped a lot. Id only seen the air rifles with the ball under it, sure are a lot of parts in those things... Fred :hatsoff: Ok now I'll butt out so you all can get back on track Thank you everyone. :bow:

 

[crockett]

Well this topic has sure generated a lot of interest. I am sort of in the camp that proto-type 1803's may well have been carried. This L & C Expedition was a big deal, like going to the moon in our day, and they would have likely been given the best of the best. The 1803's were probably on the drafting board for several years before actual production so it is entirely feasible they could have carried such guns. No supporting evidence, just a thought.
The answer may exist if we can find anything definate on the gauge/caliber of the amunition carried, weren't the 1803's 52 or 53 caliber?