lube and patches

[buckknife]

Got a question,why does a thinner patch with plenty of lube shoot better in both the 54 and the 36 with heavyer powder charge.
Ive tried the same lube with thick pillow ticlken cut at the muzzle and a store bought 15,takes 2 15s in the 54.One on top the powder an one around the prb.the 36 does ok with one.
with moose milks the gpr shoots its best with thick ticklen and 80gr of 2f goex.With the 2 15s combo it shoots better with 110 to 120 gr of 2f using murphys as the main lube.
The 36 with moose milks and the thick ticklen liked 20gr.With one 15 and murphys oil soap fer lube it shoots better and with 40gr of 3f.It was really drillen em in the target today with this load,and its a 50cal patch that i didnt cut down any.
The 15 with murphys will load in either gun with out a short started,even after the heavy loads shot in em,and they keep loaden easy with no cleaning.I even use a wooden dowel i got from wallmart for a ramrod in the 36,does have a minwax finish on it ::
Ive tried the 36 with the thick ticklen an murphys soap and the group were big with 20gr,bigger yet with 40 gr.
Maybe theres a reason that the old timmers had no use for short starters :hmm:I know i dont no more.Maybe they used thin patches with the animal fats they used.
Anyways the lye soap moose milk didnt impress me much,the skwerl juice did better.Murphys with a thin patch will smoke either one.I belive my quest for patch lube ended today along with the patches used as well.Im poren all my other lubes out.For 2.50 for a 32 ounce bottle why make my own.
I would still like to know why the thinner patch does better than the thicker ones,has me puzzled.I always thought thicker was better,finally figuared out it aint for me.

 

[musketman]

Got a question,why does a thinner patch with plenty of lube shoot better in both the 54 and the 36 with heavyer powder charge.

I'll take a shot at this question... PUN

It may not be just the lube in this scenario, the heavier charge will cause the roundball to expand more than a lighter charge, giving the patch a tighter grip on the rifling...

Also, depending on the rifling rate of twist, heavier charges will stabilize the roundball better than light ones, the slower the twist, the larger the charge is needed to stabilize the ball in flight...
:imo:

As for the patch thickness, a thin patch will allow the soft lead of the roundball to expand and flow into the grooves of the rifling along with the patch, whereas a thicker patch will not "give" as much room for the ball's expansion and could cause the ball to slip out of the patch, having nowhere to go but forwards...

This would give a loose grip on the ball by the patch, and accuracy goes out the window...

 

[Birddog6]

Boy that is a 64 million $ answer we have been looking for for 400 years ! :huh: Why does one patch & lube vary your accuracy.... Probably hundreds of different scenerios that will cause this, but I don't think ball expansion on a round ball is one if them. :imo:

Now if you are getting up to the super heavy charges like the 175 -200 grain guys, possibly this may start to be a factor but at the loads you are shooting, that ball is not expanding in the bore & sealing the bore. This is a PRB not a flat based conical or hollow based minnieball. The pressure is trying to blow around the edges of that round ball thus even pressure formed on a half-moon area surface & pushing in that form & then sealed by the patch & also using fouling to help seal too, but the PRB is not expanding in the loads......... On a flat base or a hollow base bullet the very edge area is weaker as the edges are being pushed out to the sides because we are pushing on a flat surface & the edges are the weakest point.....

Not the same thing on a PRB. You don't have that weak edge or skirt to give way. The pressure is pushed in a cone shape the same contour as the ball it is against & even pressure on the cone of the ball, no weak area on the ball, it would have to crush 1/2 of the ball to make an outward expansion to seal the bore with the ball, it will move the ball before it crushes it under normal loads..

A good example is a shotgun load & then loading a PRB in the same smoothbore barrel. The wad will expand from the pressure in a outward force against the barrel upon ignition. The roundball does not expand & the patch combined with fouling tried to seal the bore, thus a shotgun load Does have more pressure in a smoothbore barrel than a mormal load of a PRB does as the patch cannot seal as well as the wad does.... (Indirect quote from Tech. Support of the Navy Arms Co., when I asked them about shooting PRB's in a Navy Arms 12 ga double I used to own)

:results:

 

[buckknife]

Musketman an Birddog thanks for your replys.If i had a crony maybe it would help maybe.The thicker patch will shoot higher on the target with a 20gr load in the 36 than a 40gr load with the thiner patch.At first i though well maybe because it loads so easy with the 15 an shoots lower maybe i had more punch with the lighter load and the thick patch.
I was shooten around some old fallen down hog sheds that were gonna put a torch to someday,any way i tore some 2by12s off one of the sheds.The 20gr charge would punch threw 2 of em an stop in the third,these are old pine boards.
The 40gr charge will shoot threw 3 2by12s and leave a good size hole when it exsists.Now this is some old pine wood thats been around a long,long time.
There is one shed that has a huge door,the whole back end of the shed opens up,i was shooten at the big metal hinges that hold it on,about 1/8 inch metal or so.The 40 gr charge with the 15 patch would put a darn good dent in em,almost shooten threw but not quite.The 20 gr charge would put a good dent also but not as deep,these shots were at 25 yards.
I stop this hinge shooten when i started finding round ball that were flat on one side and roundish on the other side,the size of the dents in the hinge,about 10 yards from the target directly in front of me in the line of fire
Well im not sure what to think about all this.Seems like murphys oil saop when applyed conssitantly to a 15 patch,about like a store bought prelubed borebutter patch,likes heavyer charges and shoots great.Liquid gold it tis,and cheap

 

[Birddog6]

Forget the chrony... ya don't need it. We are not looking for velocity here, we are looking for grouping.... A chrony can be handy are times later, but now ti me it is useless...
Keep in mind that you shoot off a bench with sand bags, 3 shots at a time & work groups. Doing it offhand will compromise the groups as you don't really know if the groups are bad or you are bad or both..
Work loads til you find something that will group at a ceertain yardage (I suggest starting at 25 yards) and start low & increase charge 5 grains at a time to the max xharge is obtained. Somewhere in that you will find some better than others.
Now change patches & lubes & try up & down 5 grains on each. Now try same thing with dif. diameter ball. (use a .005 ball under caliber size, then a .010 under caliber size. (Don't try to measuer the bore with a dial caliber as it will be an unaccurate measurement usually) Now change patches & lubes again. Just keep doing all of this til ya fine the sweet spot THAT barrel likes.

Also, if you don't try LOTS of dif combos of lubes, patches, balls, loads, you may never find the best one. For me to do this it may take me a week of shooting just to find the right one, but when you do it is well worth it. Also keep a running ledger of what you are trying, put an astric beside the good combos & loads.. Save those targets, compare them to other good ones, then work of the best groups...

Also, you measure group size from Center of bullet hole to Center of bullet hole. Not outside to outside as the large bore groups will make your groups appear to be larger than the small bore groups becaus of a larger ball being shot..

Good luck.

 

[HardBall]

As for the patch thickness, a thin patch will allow the soft lead of the roundball to expand and flow into the grooves of the rifling along with the patch, whereas a thicker patch will not "give" as much room for the ball's expansion and could cause the ball to slip out of the patch, having nowhere to go but forwards...

This would give a loose grip on the ball by the patch, and accuracy goes out the window...

Thank you Musketman!!! :master: :master: :master:

I've been trying to figure out why, with light loads (30gr 3F - 40gr 2F), my 1:48 Bobcat shoots SO much better with a .490 ball and cheap .015 cotton patching, compared to the same ball and either .018 ticking or Walmart ticking...you just answered my question!

 

[roundball]

As for the patch thickness, a thin patch will allow the soft lead of the roundball to expand and flow into the grooves of the rifling

:huh:

Now musketman, I know it was late on New Year's Eve when you posted this so I thought I would double check to see if you're really sure about this or if you meant it as a possibility, etc.

Never thought that round balls flowed down into rifling grooves...every one I've ever recovered from a deer or some lined up water jugs were as smooth as a baby's behind...flattened some from impact but no rifling marks whatsoever...and patch thickness aside, I would have thought one of them would have had some rifling marks on it somewhere.

I always thought round balls rode on the lands like a train rides on it's tracks, with the steering being done by patch material tightly wadded down into the grooves?
::

 

[buckknife]

Im not sure,but them inline rifles when they shoot a lead bullet which is protected by the plastic sabot at high velocitys with big powder charges it has been found that they will melt the pedeals where they are attached to the base cup.Copper coated bullets were found to not do this with the 150 gr charges.This is thought to come from too much friction because the lead bullet would swell sum what.At least that is the theroy.I dont know and maybe its like birddog says it would just effect the base of the bullet,but these palastic jobs already have a skirt on em?
Enough about that modern junk,none of us are intrested in that stuff,just a example kinda.
One thing with a thick patch when you have figuared out how to start it with no ball damage the rifling marks will be imprinted deeper into the ball than a thinner patch,maybe sum wares upon pushing it down the barrel or on the shot these rifling marks can get unlined with the rifling causen worse accuracy at higher powder charges?

 

[Birddog6]

The only thing flowing into the grooves of that barrel when a round ball is shot is Fouling, Grease, & Patch. That round ball is not doing anything but riding a patch and is not changing form. I probably have 5-6 balls here from deer I have shot with a patched RB. They have cloth marks on all the way around them where the patch rode the rifling, but the rear of the ball is just as perfect as when it was loaded & I know it is the rear of it as I can see the short starter marks on the front of it & the sprue. Also the bullet retention is quite remarkable as they only lost 2-8 grains from initial weight, but a couple are flat as a quarter on one side & some are perfectly round from hitting no bone at all.

Now you can hammer a PRB into a bore to make it have full contact & fill the grooves of the barrel. But again I say it is not changing form upon ignition nor as it travels down the barrel.

Now a conical or miniball with a skirt, yes, it will change configuration & form somewhat to the rifling, thus why a heavy charge (vs bullet weaight) & fast twist will hold the rifling & stabilize a large projectile so accurately.

I guess everyone has their own ideas & theories, this is mine..

:results:




PS: The plastic saboted buller mentioned was designed to expand upon ignition & ride the grooves of the rifling.

 

[buckknife]

Welph,i duno im still tryen to figuar out why they say the world is round,looks flat to me.Ive got great accuracy with these heaver powder charges an thinner patches,why im not sure.I aint changen back anywhoo.just loading with out a short starter an not having to cut at the muzzle can speed things up considerable.A little over size patch dosnt seem to effect accuracy either.
Are forfathers moren likely didnt cut at the muzzle or use short starters.they most likely had a patch strip greased up and cut a square patch,started with there thumb and slid down the bore.Doubt if any beeswaxs or moose milks were used in this. :hmmr liquid soaps.
My next indever if i get the hankering will be square cut thin patch with animal tallow.Id cas my ownballs but after worken in a foundry around liquid iron i find it hard to get inthused about casting,im a molder,thats what i do.
I have not been able to find the same type of material at the fabric store as the precuts are.I have miked out indgo denuim that the same size but it dosnt seem to have the tight weave.Are these precut patches made of thin canvas or sum type of material,they are are a 40 stich or sumthin that i cant seem to find at a fabric store.

 

[Birddog6]

It is unlikely you ever find 2 barrels that will shoot the exact patch/ball/lube/charge the same & have the same accuracy... I have shot them side by side numerous times with identical barrels & loads & invaribly one will be a lil different than the other. Ya just have to play with it.

JoAnne Fabrics usually has good material & Hancock Fabrics an now & then you can even find some at WalMart. Some use a 40 count, some denimm, some sailcloth, some canvas, some ticking..... there are dozens of materials that will work. I will say if you find some you like you better buy it, as lots of times when you come back it will be different even tho it is the same sku#. I try to stay with what is the most reasonable & that is pillow ticking for me. Oxyoke makes good patches but it is more expensive than cutting your own. Also it depends on how much ya shoot. If ya shoot 1000 round a year I would simply buy them precut in a 500 pack & forget it. But if ya are shooting 10,000 rounds a year ya may want to find a cheaper source. I suggest anything ya buy be 100% cotton or you will be scraping plastic residue out of the barrel.

Also, for me it gets down to a certain point of accuracy & then it is me & human error, so it is not like trying to cut one .22 cal hole at 200 yards as I would with a HP varmint rifle & scope. I try to get the ML to shoot a 3 shot group under 1" at 50 to 75 yards on a bench with open sights & when I acquire that, any way off misses at targets or plates are my error, not because the rifle didn't perform.

Everyone has different expectations of what they want to acquire in accuracy & also most have a different concept of what accuracy is with a ML. Some are satisfied with a 3 shot 4" group at 50 yards. Others think a 3 shot 4" group at 50 yards means it just shoots & needs lots more work & want that group under 1" & cutting each other at that distance... That is something you have to decide for yourself.

 

[buckknife]

I found sum cotton muslum material today that mikes out pretty close.Have it in the dryer right now.The tcklen is always easyer to find an seems consistant anyways,im gonna try sum square patches in the 36 of this thinner stuff see what happens sumtime.Thanks for all your imput on the subject.

 

[Dave K]

If you find what works perfect in your gun, go back and make sure you find the same bolt of cloth and buy yards of it. You will not regret it!