Lyman Great Plains Rifle - Barrel Fit

[Grayson Palmer]

I searched for this, and I'm sure it has been discussed but I couldn't find it. Sorry if it is a repeat.
I'm nearly done building my first kit gun. It's a .54 caliber Lyman Great Plains Rifle percussion.
Lots of challenges for this newbie. But now I'm down to something I need to run by you guys before I mess something up.

There are several problems I'm having with the barrel fit.

1. With the tang screwed down, the barrel will not drop down into the stock. I understand this is a common issue. Lyman has a video explaining to back out the front and back screws on the tang. I did this but that didn't help unless I backed it way out several turns.
   1. I don't like the idea of having the tang riding so high above where it "should" seat. Something can't be quite right about that.
   2. A couple ideas on this...first being...maybe the rear/bottom of the barrel is touching the stock bed near the tang and I need to scrape out some wood so the barrel will lay flat. It's hard to put wood back in though so I haven't started this.
   3. Second idea, being a little wacky, I could put a block of metal (or wood) underneath the tang at the end where the barrel goes (the hex shaped part of the tang). I've toyed with this by putting a small nut in there and tightening down the tang to wedge it in place. This "seems" to work. The barrel dropped ALMOST into the stock, just a little spring back.
   4. I just thought of this. I could put some washers on the bolt that holds down the front of the tang. The washers would go UNDER the tang and therefore I could feel somewhat assured the tang was in the same place and not loose all the time. This option would do the same thing as my wacky spacer idea above and it would be a lot easier to find a few small washers than to make a perfect spacer.
2. When I get the barrel into the stock (either with tang screws backed way out, or with the nut "spacer" under the hex end of the tang), a couple more issues exist. I actually think they exist if I just lay the barrel in the stock without the tang in place at all, but I need to check that.
   1. First being...the barrel wedges don't fit "right". I can push the rear wedge 95% in with my thumb and whack it with something and it goes right in. But then the front wedge just falls in...no resistance. I *think* whichever wedge I put in first is "good". But then the second is too loose.
      1. I've heard of the method of taking a round rod or dowel and laying it on the barrel lugs and bending them in to make them "tighter". Is that the proper method? I don't know whether the wedge should be tight in the lugs because they just barely fit through the lugs, OR if the wedges should be tight because the lugs just lack a little bit of lining up with the wedges. In other words, if you took out your barrel and put a wedge in the lug slot (no stock involved), does the wedge fall into the lug slot, or does it taking some pushing/tapping to get it in there?
   2. Second issue is the ramrod. I have a brass ramrod that is made for this rifle. It hits the rear barrel lug and won't go any farther. Well...it WILL go farther but it's a pain to get it back out if you force it past the rear barrel lug.

The above is probably TOO MUCH so if no one responds or if it's not clear (and I'm sure it's not), then I will try breaking it down into simpler parts.

As always, THANK YOU

 

[Phil Coffins]

I’ll start at the brass ram rod, don’t put it in the gun.
The keys should drop in the slots if the barrel isn’t in. When properly fitted the keys should press into place to hold the barrel with finger pressure.
The keys should bear against the wood and the escutcheon is only there to protect the wood.
The tang and barrel can be glued together then fit to the wood as a unit. That allows them to be inlet in relation to each other.
Kits are tough t build because you have to overcame all the errors that are supplied by the seller. But keep at it it can be done.

 

[fishmusic]

Lyman does give you the correct approach. Go ahead and back the tang screws out a bit. I had the same issue with mine. I also went to a Woodcraft and picked up some inexpensive veneer as a shim. 1/32" of shim did the trick. Get the barrel to fit within 1/16 to 1/8 inch of fitting to the fore stock. If you can get it flat so much the better. You may have to file the tang back down to the level of the stock. Now that you have that done work on the wedges. Clamp the barrel in place to see how they fit. For a loose wedge use a piece of 1 inch round pipe or steel and GENTLY tap the staple and test until you get what feels right. A needle file on the inside of a staple will fix a tight one. It's a bit of a balancing act but if you take your time and take care not to whack on it you will get it to fit. Good luck and have fun with it!

 

[Grayson Palmer]

Just to make sure, let me ask this a different way (taking 1 thing at a time now).
If I remove my barrel, and drop a wedge into the stock where the escutcheons are...it should fall all the way in.
With the barrel still removed, if I drop a wedge into the lug on the barrel, it should drop all the way in there too? Or there should be some resistance such that if I rotate the barrel the wedge would not fall out of the barrel lug?

 

[Phil Coffins]

Correct, the key (or wedge) should move freely threw the stock or barrel. A slight difference between barrel and stock creates the friction to hold the barrel down and key in place.

 

[fishmusic]

Phil has the right it. You should have a friction fit with barrel in place but the wedge may be a drop through either the stock or barrel lug. Br sure to post a pic of your finished rifle. An old fellow in our club swears that the GPR is based on Kit Carson's gun.

 

[Boomerang]

I use a flat washer of the proper thickness under the front tang screw to get the proper height so the barrel is not binding when laid in the stock and I put a little bow in the wedge keys with the bow facing down to put a little tension on the keys when inserted. Then I mark the keys with an F and a B for front and back. After over a hundred times of taking the barrel out to clean, it still pops back in place with no movement or shift in aiming point.

 

[Grayson Palmer]

Ok thanks for all the help on the wedge keys. I'll do some more thinking on all the suggestions. They all sound good.

 

[Grayson Palmer]

I’ll start at the brass ram rod, don’t put it in the gun.
The keys should drop in the slots if the barrel isn’t in. When properly fitted the keys should press into place to hold the barrel with finger pressure.
The keys should bear against the wood and the escutcheon is only there to protect the wood.
The tang and barrel can be glued together then fit to the wood as a unit. That allows them to be inlet in relation to each other.
Kits are tough t build because you have to overcame all the errors that are supplied by the seller. But keep at it it can be done.

Thanks Phil. Why not put in the brass ramrod? Do you mean...first fit the barrel and wedges and worry about the brass rod later? Or is there an issue with brass rods?

 

[Phil Coffins]

The barrel needs to fit the stock with the keys in place. Also the lock must set correctly to the bolster. Check the operation of the triggers as well. Then comes the ram rod. The old timers used wood ram rods with success and I would suggest that you follow them. A brass rod doesn’t flex, is heavy and makes the rifle muzzle heavy. If you’re thinking wood might break it only happens when used incorrectly. Steel would be a better choice as it is stronger and less abrasive to the bore.

 

[Grayson Palmer]

So the barrel now fits in the stock pretty nicely. I have the tang tightened down. Barrel hooks in and almost lays flat in the stock. Just a bit of spring away from the stock. Which means the barrel wedge pins do have some friction keeping them in place as they pull the barrel down into the stock bed.

NOW...I tried the stock ramrod that came with the gun. It kinda stinks (one end came off very easily...but I glued it back on). Regardless though, I'm working on getting it to fit. I figure I can get a better ramrod later.

HOWEVER, the issue is, the ramrod hits the rear lug on the barrel. You can force it past, but not without quite a bit of effort. And it's pretty darn hard to get back out.

I COULD (but don't think it is the right thing to do) grind kind of a ramp on the front edge of the rear barrel lug. Or possibly JB Weld a ramp right in front of it. That would make getting the ramrod past the barrel lug easier. But it'd still be super tight and hard to extract.

Other ideas? I could shim something under the barrel but the wedges would probably pull the barrel back down in the way of the ramrod. I may try this by just laying a shim in there (not gluing it in or anything) and seeing what happens.

 

[simonbeans]

Two things: 1) the rod tips NEED to be pinned as well as glued. Actually don’t need glue if pinned. 2) taper the lower end of the rod. Many originals were.

 

[Grayson Palmer]

Will try the above. Thanks!

 

[Phil Coffins]

A bit of ramp is good and can you thin the lug some. I use staples and thin he bottom to keep the ram rod close. Avoid JB weld on guns Please! Pinning the ram rod should be considered standard processor.
8320AFCD-4D6B-4267-8064-CB5F6AA59DBD by Oliver Sudden, on Flickr

 

[Dale Lilly]

Lyman does give you the correct approach. Go ahead and back the tang screws out a bit. I had the same issue with mine. I also went to a Woodcraft and picked up some inexpensive veneer as a shim. 1/32" of shim did the trick. Get the barrel to fit within 1/16 to 1/8 inch of fitting to the fore stock. If you can get it flat so much the better. You may have to file the tang back down to the level of the stock. Now that you have that done work on the wedges. Clamp the barrel in place to see how they fit. For a loose wedge use a piece of 1 inch round pipe or steel and GENTLY tap the staple and test until you get what feels right. A needle file on the inside of a staple will fix a tight one. It's a bit of a balancing act but if you take your time and take care not to whack on it you will get it to fit. Good luck and have fun with it!

 

[Dale Lilly]

Instead of a veneer shim, try cutting the end from a popsicle stick, sand it thinner as necessary, glue it in.
When it is correct, stain it to match the stock. Dale

 

[SDSmlf]

A number of topics here.

In my opinion you want the barrel to drop flat into the stock. Any amount of upward ‘spring’ will stress the stock through the lock area and could lead to a cracked stock, usually right through the lock screw hole. Shim the stock and or bend the tang a bit. However you shim the stock make sure to permanently install the shim. Lose pieces have a tendency to fall out and get misplaced at a later date when you or someone else disassembles the gun.

Last couple of GPRs I played with required removing material from the under barrel lugs before the ramrod would fit. I used a round file to creat grooves in the lugs for the ramrod to pass through.

On guns with two keys also found that pining the keys to the stock (use a jeweler’s saw to cut slots in the keys, add pins to the stock) avoided mixing up or losing them.

Just some thoughts and opinions on GPR kits

 

[Grayson Palmer]

Ok...slowly getting there. Taking all the tips and advice. Looks good! Thank you!