I have an idea I would like to toss out for opinions. I was thinking of a carbine for my wife as she finds the long barrel on most muzzleloaders too heavy. Quite often the Hawkins are found pretty cheap at the gun shows. How about cutting the barrel back to about 20". Most of the Hawkins have a 1-48 twist. This is usually too fast for round ball and too slow for conical for achieving accuracy. Since pistols run from a 1-20 to 1-30, the 1-48 on a 20" barrel shoud be about right for round ball? End result, a muzzle light carbine with a good twist (read accurate) for round ball? I happened to pick hawkin because it has short fore stock and they are common. There are probably a lot of possible canidates.
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Making a Carbine
- Thread starter Mr Nick
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I'll be watching this with interest. If not 20" how about 22", or 24"? Isn't the barrel on a H7A Buggy Rifle about 20"? I think those are from "Blue Grouse" and I don't know what the price comparison is but I'll bet it fits the bill for weight.
First I will say that IMO, there's nothing wrong with a 1:48 twist in a .45, .50 or .54 caliber gun. The problem with most of the modern factory guns is the rifleing grooves are a bit shallow for a patched round ball.
Even with the shallow grooves, they will produce some exceptional groups is the powder charge isn't up towards the MAX loads the gun was built to handle.
As for the short barrel, the use of heavy powder charges is IMO a waste of powder so this, coupled with my first statement says with a moderate load (for target shooting) and a semi hot load (for hunting) the gun should work well.
The problem with shortening the barrel, is it must be absolutely square (perpendicular) with the bore.
It must also be crowned uniformly to achieve accuracy.
Recutting the front sight dovetail is a task some people like to avoid.
If you've done that before, then why not produce a Carbine for your wife?
If you don't feel you are capable of cutting (and filing) the end of the barrel, producing a good muzzleloading crown and cutting a new dovetail, I'm sure you can find a Gunsmith who will do the job for you.
Even with the shallow grooves, they will produce some exceptional groups is the powder charge isn't up towards the MAX loads the gun was built to handle.
As for the short barrel, the use of heavy powder charges is IMO a waste of powder so this, coupled with my first statement says with a moderate load (for target shooting) and a semi hot load (for hunting) the gun should work well.
The problem with shortening the barrel, is it must be absolutely square (perpendicular) with the bore.
It must also be crowned uniformly to achieve accuracy.
Recutting the front sight dovetail is a task some people like to avoid.
If you've done that before, then why not produce a Carbine for your wife?
If you don't feel you are capable of cutting (and filing) the end of the barrel, producing a good muzzleloading crown and cutting a new dovetail, I'm sure you can find a Gunsmith who will do the job for you.
I like short barreled guns and have made several. The smallest one is 24 inches.
This particular gun is a 59 caliber and I made it with a wide but plate to help manage recoil. The best she does is with 80 grains 2f. If I put more powder than that into her, she will kick, and kick hard.
The others I have made are two 50 caliber guns with barrels of 33 inches. They shoot well with about 60 grains of 2f.
I also made a 38 from an old original discarded barrel that had been progressively cut down from (I suppose) a much longer barrel. It measures 32 inches.
These short barreled guns are light, easy to handle and a pleasure to work with in the woods.
So, if you are going to build a gun, and want to try a short barreled gun, give it a go.
This particular gun is a 59 caliber and I made it with a wide but plate to help manage recoil. The best she does is with 80 grains 2f. If I put more powder than that into her, she will kick, and kick hard.
The others I have made are two 50 caliber guns with barrels of 33 inches. They shoot well with about 60 grains of 2f.
I also made a 38 from an old original discarded barrel that had been progressively cut down from (I suppose) a much longer barrel. It measures 32 inches.
These short barreled guns are light, easy to handle and a pleasure to work with in the woods.
So, if you are going to build a gun, and want to try a short barreled gun, give it a go.
Guest
Your right in that a short barrel will kick more than a longer one.
I have found out that the shorter you make it, the more recoil it will produce.
A 20" barrel would really have a wollip that may be in the uncofortable range for a man to shoot, let alone a woman.
The recoil has to do with the shifting of weight in the balance of the gun , the rear being heavier than the front from shorting it. (among other factors) :results:
Personally I wouldn't make it shorter than 24". It will also effect the range distance it will be accurate at.
Also I have 3 1-48 twist barrels and ALL shoot PRB fine with ffg and fffg Goex in the 70 to 90 grain load range.
I agree that a slower twist would be a better choice for PRB but have not had any problem with shooting PBR in a 1-48 twist barrel.
Woody
I have found out that the shorter you make it, the more recoil it will produce.
A 20" barrel would really have a wollip that may be in the uncofortable range for a man to shoot, let alone a woman.
The recoil has to do with the shifting of weight in the balance of the gun , the rear being heavier than the front from shorting it. (among other factors) :results:
Personally I wouldn't make it shorter than 24". It will also effect the range distance it will be accurate at.
Also I have 3 1-48 twist barrels and ALL shoot PRB fine with ffg and fffg Goex in the 70 to 90 grain load range.
I agree that a slower twist would be a better choice for PRB but have not had any problem with shooting PBR in a 1-48 twist barrel.
Woody
MikeChapin
58 Cal.
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Years ago I shortened a CVA Kentucky for my wife. She's a little over 5 foot and weighs 100 1bs dripping wet so the Kentucky was a little much for her.
I whacked 6 inches off the end, squared up the end and put a shallow crown in by hand. I also put in a front sight dovetail all by hand. I used directions I found in "Recreating the American Longrifle" by Buchele and Shumway. It took a little time but came out great. She used it a lot for a few years until a motor home fire sent it to rifle heaven.
--Mike
I whacked 6 inches off the end, squared up the end and put a shallow crown in by hand. I also put in a front sight dovetail all by hand. I used directions I found in "Recreating the American Longrifle" by Buchele and Shumway. It took a little time but came out great. She used it a lot for a few years until a motor home fire sent it to rifle heaven.
--Mike
The short barrel will reduce the weight and increase the felt recoil. The bigger question is will the powder charge be fully consumed by the time the ball clears the muzzle? You might get lots of style points for the ball of fire at the muzzle. Not trying to be a smart a.. but this is something you might want to consider.
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The H&A Buggy would be my first choice, they are made in 36-45 and 50 cal.
Depends upon the wifes size, if she is small, Traditions made some youth rifles in 45 and 50. I have a 45 full stocker with a 26" barrel that the boys shot when they 'was little.' Might be able to find some used ones out there!
Depends upon the wifes size, if she is small, Traditions made some youth rifles in 45 and 50. I have a 45 full stocker with a 26" barrel that the boys shot when they 'was little.' Might be able to find some used ones out there!
nathanbowenarrow
36 Cal.
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Is there a given amount of powder a specific berrel length will fully burn? If so how about some examples.... .50 22"-80 gr.?
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bluegrouseblackpowder
Bruce sells H&A Underhammers, he now lists the buggy with a 28" barrel, they use to be 20 or 21" guess you would have to find a used one!?
Bruce sells H&A Underhammers, he now lists the buggy with a 28" barrel, they use to be 20 or 21" guess you would have to find a used one!?
Stimpy c. cat
32 Cal.
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I would consider to equip a Kentucky Pistol or a Bounty Hunter Pistol with a custom buttstock (there are also buyable pc carbine stocks, at least for the CVA Kentucky Pistol, available).
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Stimpy
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Stimpy
I salvaged an old (1973) TC barrel with a bulge from a short-loaded ball. Sawed it down to 25", but didn't quite eliminate the damage from the bulge. Coned it w/ a Wood tool, & it shoots better than I can hold. Reckon a few more inches off wouldn't hurt much, sorta like a pistol w/ a real long grip. The resulting rifle is not heavy (don't have a scale), & since I only shoot 50 grs of FFFG, recoil is mild.
Yes, you gotta be real careful about sawing barrels off to get them square. I measure & cut down each flat gradually until is complete, then w/ a good square, check the "squareness" of the muzzle. File smooth & keep checking the square.
Yes, you gotta be real careful about sawing barrels off to get them square. I measure & cut down each flat gradually until is complete, then w/ a good square, check the "squareness" of the muzzle. File smooth & keep checking the square.
A few years back--mid 90's--I bought a kit from Gander Mountain that had a .54cal, 1 in 32 twist 24 inch barrel. It shot great with PRB and 60 gr fffg. I tried it once or twice with Maxi-Ball and it kicked like a mule with 60gr fffg. My father used it for a wall hanger. I don't know where it is now. But it looked nice! And shot nice, too! So, why not?
:results: :imo:
:results: :imo:
Mr. N, I have a 19" .54 made from a TC Renegade. There's a little more recoil because of the less weight but there's a little less recoil because of the less velocity, not really much difference all together. If there is , shoot less powder. I shoot 60 grs. 3f, whole gun is about 35 or 36",
go for it. :thumbsup:
go for it. :thumbsup:
Here are some of my guns Mr.Nick......there are two hat could be described as carbines......
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The first picture shows two, the one directly below the two rough stocks is a 38 caliber with a barrel of about 32 inches, stocked in walnut. The barrel was recut from an old original.
The other 'carbine' is a 59 caliber barrel that is 24 inches long. That one is stocked in maple, has a very wide buttplate and is shot with 80 grains of 2f. Shoots great at 25 yards, opens up at 50 yards.
The first picture shows two, the one directly below the two rough stocks is a 38 caliber with a barrel of about 32 inches, stocked in walnut. The barrel was recut from an old original.
The other 'carbine' is a 59 caliber barrel that is 24 inches long. That one is stocked in maple, has a very wide buttplate and is shot with 80 grains of 2f. Shoots great at 25 yards, opens up at 50 yards.
Wow, Blahman, wish I had a tenth of your skills. Gorgeous guns. Thanks for posting the photos.
