Man I hate to do this

BUT another discussion about lube. :what: :youcrazy: :huh:
:relax:
Have any of you done comparisons of lubes over the machine in a scientific manner to determine what different results are obtained with what different lubes?
I've got a friend who shoots flint, says he lost all accuracy with T/C Bore Butter with his .40, and went back to whatever liquid lube he was using.
Anyone ever tackle this one in a specific manner, rather than anecdotal, or heresay, or "one day a the range..." stories.
I really, really, think this bares some investigation.
Even if no chrono is available, some 10 shot strings with Snot, and say, Lehigh Valley, or spit, would be usefull informtion. :m2c:

 

I think perhaps, most rifles require different lubes and/or different quantities of those lubes. This is dependent on the conditon of the barrel inside, as well as rate of twist, depth of rifling, and style of riflng, wide vs narrow lands and numbers of them. There are many ways to skew the results & many different 'conditions' including atmospheric as well.
: The Snot lube didn't work for you in the .45 rifle - that day - in those conditions, so that means(to me) it also has to be tried in the winter time - perhaps those conditions will be different enough to alter the results. For me, it's cold weather properties are it's reason for being, and THAT is the test that will be most meaningful for me. It wold have been nice if it orked in the summer as well. Is Lehigh Valley lube suitable for winter use? In other words, does it get hard & stiff?

 

[roundball]

I'm totally convinced that anything allowed to build up in a barrel can causes accuracy problems.

In the example of bore butter, I am also totally convinced that the root cause is not bore butter itself...but the lack of 100% totally, thoroughly cleaning out every bit of anything that's in a bore after a shoot. To wipe a bore and see what looks like a clean patch is not a true indication of the cleanliness of the bore.

In my 32" barrels there are 12 - 90 degree corner relationships between all the lands and grooves running the full length of the barrel...that's 32 FEET of sharp 90 degree corner relationships that a mere soft patch on a ROUND jag won't always get down into...and I personally believe a bore brush should always be used.

If ANYTHING is left in the bore, by definition that's buildup...and with repeated episodes the buildup accumulates, reaching the point where it begins to affect accuracy.

Bore butter is the only thing I've ever used and from day one I've used a cleaning regimen that includes a bore bursh every time down to the raw metal...never have any build up from bore butter, and my barrels continue to shoot like they're brand new, or better.

In fact, after a steaming hot/soapy bath including a bore brush and hot water rinse and the barrel is dry, I literally use popcicle sticks to pack bore butter down into the grooves as far as I can reach so the bore butter lube patch will have plenty to spread downbore...and I do this 2-3 times when lubing a bore after cleaning.

Buildup affects accuracy...but "buildup" comes from leaving something in the bore each time so that "buildup" occurs in the first place...and I believe bores have to be 100% clean every time...not 95%, not 97%...100%...every time...to the raw metal.
:results: :imo: :m2c: ::

 

Interesting, Roundball, but I have to wonder if this is all necessary. I have never had a cleaning regime like yours, and I honestly see yours as being rather excessive, however that system works for you, obviously, or you wouldn't still be using it.
: I mean, for someone who normally cleans their rifle after supper on the day they shoot (dry climate allows this without damage) and fire 50 to 100 rounds a day when at the range, without have to wipe the bore, your system seems quite extreme. Perhaps the use of bore butter, requires this sort of cleaning system.
: On the other hand, I find it impossible to believe there is any bore butter left in the bore after firing. Yes, there will be damp, soft fouling, as there should be, and powder fouing will be in the grooves, but when the next ball is loaded, all that fouling is pushed down the bore on top of the powder for the next shot. If bore butter won't do or allow this, then it ins't good enough for me to use. I NEED to have a lube that allows shooting without having to clean. Bear grease and bear's oil allowed sufficient secondary shots for hunting large game, and for small game shooting, having to swab the bore a couple times during the day, isn't bad, I guess. I am hoping Moose Snot will allow a 50 round day without having to swab, AND WITHOUT a change in acuracy, just as spit allows for range shooting. For taget shooting as on the trail walk, I cannot be shooting a combination that requires cleaning. I don't have the time as shooting is a social event and we talk between targets, not clean our rifles.

 

Wow!Verrrrrrrrrrrry interesting opposing views both with valid arguments.
Wonderful debate! This is precisely how issues get disected and root causes uncovered.
In Daryls world of trail walk shooting and hunting situations swabbing bewteen shots needs to be eliminated.
In other situations swabbing is prefered.
That's way we have different lubes hey?
With in-lines using tight sabots I've found that swabbing is necessary to get the next round downbore.
In the field, actual hunting experineces with tight sabots and in-lines swabbing was difficult at best.
I had to compromise and find a bullet/sabot that may not have extreme accuracy, but allowed hunting accuracy without the NEED to swab.
I think Snot may be a very useful PRACTICLE lube. It will protect the bore if you reload in the field and can't clean the thing till the end of the day, yet makes follow up reloading easy and provides reliable practicle accuracy.
I have nothing against Bore Butter. I've used it by the cupful and NEVER, not once did I have a corrosion problem with it.
I think Snot is even better than Butter. (sorry 'bout the rhyme.)
Why? The castor oil is that good a metal protector without being petro based.
The beeswax is a proven protector also and beeswax based patches seldom burn out. :results:
Let the debate and investigation continue. :: :applause:

 

[tg]

My scientific (circa 1765) process was as follows, a friend mentioned bear greas/beeswax as a patchlube,and it was a type used in the past. I knew spit worked but did not like the idea of leaving a wet load in the bore for any length of time. I tried the oil/wax and strait bear grease as well, both shot very acceptable groups at the max range I shoot, I found no need to look any farther or try to improve upon what this gave me...probaly a bit primitive and simple for most but this type of thinking in most aspects of the sport has served me well and helps stay close to the "experience of a time long passed" that I try to capture.

 

[roundball]

:what: Daryl, I'm not sure how you arrived at some of the statememts you made based on anything I wrote...I shoot 40 shot range sessions every Saturday and never wipe between shots...bore butter lets me do that.

My post was simply clarifying the assertion that bore butter causes buildup hence poor accuracy, by pointing out that poor cleaning regimens contribute to buildup by not removing everything from a barrel's previous use(s), not bore butter per se...

 

Hey tg! Remember this and you can quote me!
For EVERY question there is a simple, fast and WRONG answer.
I don't have any bear oil. Don't know where to get any in supplies that are going to be available over the long haul.

 

[tg]

If you want some bear oil contact your local taxidermists, most will set aside a gallon or two when the work a bear hide,enjoy your experimentations, I prefer to keep life simple and do not require the complicated multi dimensional,cause and effect and cure mindset of this century, I would rather find the less complex simple solution even if modern technology suggess that it is not the most efficient/effective way.

 

Sorry Roundball - I thought you mentioned that you cleaned between shots - my mistake.
: I do know that when I tried bore butter on my 450gr. Concals in the 50-70, the accuracy was wonderful, even though the lube was too soft as is, for that purpose and, on a hot day, would run out of the bullet's grooves & spoil the powder, not to mention the lack of lubrication for the sussequent bullet.
; The accuracy and soft fouling, removed by a single dry patch after the 5 shot group or 70gr. BP loads, showed it worked great. The only problem is that it's too soft for bullets in the ctg, gun and needs to me made stiffer, to resist melting at high temp. If it then loses it's fouling sofentening traits or accuracy, well, that's the peridcament. I think I'll concentrate on Moose Snot variations for awhile, making it into a lube for the lube sizer, perhaps, with the addition of a lot more beeswax.
: With my batch of new beeswax, excellent wax that it is, I'll be able to mix up LOTS of lubes to try - now, I need some time to do it.