I recently purchased a percussion double shotgun that was advertised as a Joseph Manton. I doubt if it was really made by Joseph Manton and I'm trying to figure out who made this gun and about what year it was made. I bought the book about the Mantons but it was not much help. Maybe someone on this forum is knowledgeable about this? Or maybe you know someone who could help me figure this out?
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Manton shotgun
- Thread starter mbritt
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Mike Brooks
Cannon
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Pictures would be nice. We could probably get it figured out then. :thumbsup:
Mike, I would but I can't figure out how to attach photos to this post. The help instructions say
to click the manage files link but that link does not exist.
You can see lot's of photos of this gun at[url] www.joesalter.com[/url] under Antique Longguns and click on the listing "Joseph Manton Percussion SG"
There are two proof marks on the bottom of both barrels. All four proof marks appear to be the same; a septor and an ax crossed, with a crown.
to click the manage files link but that link does not exist.
You can see lot's of photos of this gun at[url] www.joesalter.com[/url] under Antique Longguns and click on the listing "Joseph Manton Percussion SG"
There are two proof marks on the bottom of both barrels. All four proof marks appear to be the same; a septor and an ax crossed, with a crown.
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After looking at the proofmarks again with a magnifying glass I see they are the crossed scepters and crown, with a triangular shapped mark on the other side of the X opposite the crown. At first I thought that triangular shaped mark was an axe blade.
mike alexandre
45 Cal.
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I'm not sure if this is going to be of any help but I have to say I dont think this is a gun which either Joe or John worked on. The trigger gaurd is not a Manton shape, the fact that its a 12 bore takes it out of the period, most guns were 14 or 16 bore and the hammers look very bulky. I may be wrong but thats my first impressions. Many Mantons were made by other makers, some were made in Belgium.
robinghewitt
62 Cal.
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I've got a similar single in 14 bore marked "MANTON". Mine does have the typical guard, but they did other shapes. I pegged it for a later Manton than Joe.
Some bits are more similar than others :thumbsup:
The bore should be stamped under the barrel between the proofs.
Some bits are more similar than others :thumbsup:
The bore should be stamped under the barrel between the proofs.
First let me say that this is the only original muzzleloader double gun I have ever examined, so I may be mistaken about some things.
I looked over the barrels again with my magnifying glass and don't see any other markings besides the four proof marks. I measured the barrels again with my calipers. The right bore is .66 and the left bore is .68 so I guess it was originally a 16 gauge. I assume that at one time someone probably bored out the left barrel because it was pitted.
I have taken off the hardware and can not find a serial number anywhere.
There is nice engraving on every piece of hardware.
There are no cracks or chips in the stock. It appears to have the original stock finish which is worn a lot on the fore end, but not worn much on the main stock. It appears to have the original 16 point flat top checkering which is not worn much. Maybe it was not used much, or maybe at one time the stock was refinished and re-checkered. I think this gun was not used a lot but was neglected and allowed to get rusty too many times during it's life.
In my book "The Mantons: Gunmakers" they list two guns make by Joseph Manton with the lock signed Jos H Manton like on my gun. One is a flintlock blunderbuss made in 1832 and with no serial number. The other is a percussion double rifle with no serial number. I read someplace that back action locks first appeared around 1830, so thought this might be an original.
When I look at the details of how this gun was built, the craftsmanship is first class. The metal to wood fit is perfect. This is the first gun I have ever handled that I can do this; close my eyes and point the gun, then open my eyes it is right on. It fits me better than any other gun I have ever held.
However the gun is in poor condition. All of the steel hardware has been rusted so that it has lost the original finish and turned black, like a black patina. You can see a little of the charcoal blue on the locks, especially on the back side. The ramrod is old but not original. The bores were very dirty and rusted inside. You can see a little bit of the browned Damascus twist pattern on the bottom of the barrels, but the rest of barrels are so dark that you can hardly tell they are Damascus. Because of the dark patina, it is very difficult and in some places almost impossible to see the engraving that is on every piece of hardware. The nipples were rusted so badly that I had to apply liquid wrench twice a day for two days before I could unscrew them. Both locks have been poorly repaired and damaged. The left breach plug is not screwed in all the way. It's off by about 1/32 inch and that looks bad. All of the screws have been badly damaged from people using a regular screwdrivers on them. The under barrel lug has been replaced and there is solder showing all around it.
I bought this gun so I could have an original Joseph Manton gun to study and use as a model when building a new shotgun and for that purpose I think this is a good gun even though it was probably not made by a Manton. But I still would like to know who made it and about what year it as made.
I looked over the barrels again with my magnifying glass and don't see any other markings besides the four proof marks. I measured the barrels again with my calipers. The right bore is .66 and the left bore is .68 so I guess it was originally a 16 gauge. I assume that at one time someone probably bored out the left barrel because it was pitted.
I have taken off the hardware and can not find a serial number anywhere.
There is nice engraving on every piece of hardware.
There are no cracks or chips in the stock. It appears to have the original stock finish which is worn a lot on the fore end, but not worn much on the main stock. It appears to have the original 16 point flat top checkering which is not worn much. Maybe it was not used much, or maybe at one time the stock was refinished and re-checkered. I think this gun was not used a lot but was neglected and allowed to get rusty too many times during it's life.
In my book "The Mantons: Gunmakers" they list two guns make by Joseph Manton with the lock signed Jos H Manton like on my gun. One is a flintlock blunderbuss made in 1832 and with no serial number. The other is a percussion double rifle with no serial number. I read someplace that back action locks first appeared around 1830, so thought this might be an original.
When I look at the details of how this gun was built, the craftsmanship is first class. The metal to wood fit is perfect. This is the first gun I have ever handled that I can do this; close my eyes and point the gun, then open my eyes it is right on. It fits me better than any other gun I have ever held.
However the gun is in poor condition. All of the steel hardware has been rusted so that it has lost the original finish and turned black, like a black patina. You can see a little of the charcoal blue on the locks, especially on the back side. The ramrod is old but not original. The bores were very dirty and rusted inside. You can see a little bit of the browned Damascus twist pattern on the bottom of the barrels, but the rest of barrels are so dark that you can hardly tell they are Damascus. Because of the dark patina, it is very difficult and in some places almost impossible to see the engraving that is on every piece of hardware. The nipples were rusted so badly that I had to apply liquid wrench twice a day for two days before I could unscrew them. Both locks have been poorly repaired and damaged. The left breach plug is not screwed in all the way. It's off by about 1/32 inch and that looks bad. All of the screws have been badly damaged from people using a regular screwdrivers on them. The under barrel lug has been replaced and there is solder showing all around it.
I bought this gun so I could have an original Joseph Manton gun to study and use as a model when building a new shotgun and for that purpose I think this is a good gun even though it was probably not made by a Manton. But I still would like to know who made it and about what year it as made.
robinghewitt
62 Cal.
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mbritt said:
I think it probably was made by a Manton. It has B'ham proofs and was made while John Augustus was still trading. Would you sign a gun "Disney"? :grin:
The writing on the rib is not Mantonesque and was done to sell the gun in America where they were allergic to steel shotgun barrels. Is it possible the "Jos'h" scratching was added at the same time next to an existing "MANTON" mark? Look closely at the style :hmm:
