maximum load size...

[FlintlockJonny]

I shoot a .50 cal. Flintlock and a .45 cal flintlock pistol. Not that I am going to try, not that crazy, but is there a maximum legal charge you can put in a muzzleloader? Or a maximum charge you can put in before it gets dangerous to shoot the gun? If you put an insane amount of powder, like 500 grains in a rifle, will it all just blow out the end? Just a curious fellow. And I repeat, I do not want to try, I just want to know the physics behind the blast in the barrel.

 

[Zonie]

The more powder you have behind a given projectile, the higher the breech pressure is going to be.

The heavier the projectile, the higher the breech pressure is going to be.

The finer the size of the Black Powder grains, the faster it burns so finer powders create pressure faster in a given load at the moment of ignition.

Put any one, or all three of these together and there will be a point reached where the pressure exceeds the barrels ability to contain it.
If this occurs the barrel will blow up, or the breech plug will blow out.

Most Governments outside of the United States require that all guns must pass a proof test to assure that a reasonable load is safe to shoot in the gun.
The United States does not require this test although all companies run proof tests to assure the firearm is safe to shoot.

IMO, most muzzleloading rifles are somewhat overdesigned in this age with our current materials.

I feel this is true because the original designs were made to work fairly safely although they were made out of forge welded wrought iron which could have weak places in it.
These originals were each proof tested to weed out the guns which would be dangerous.

Our modern recreations are made out of much higher quality, stronger material, but the designs haven't changed so putting these things together results in a safe firearm which does not really need to be tested.

This is not to say they are safe with any load because, as I said in the beginning unsafe pressures can be created which could cause the material to fail.

It's just my opinion, but a powder load in excess of 130 grains in a .50 caliber barrel is not only a waste of powder, but could create a dangerous condition.
The smaller caliber barrels maximum powder loads are considerably less.

zonie

 

[renovato]

You know, I've seen advice both ways. I've heard of tests done where a barrel was filled completely with powder, sealed and ignited and supposedly all it did was spew pressure out the nipple. I've also personally seen blown barrels from overloading. I don't know which is correct, but common sense says to err on the side of caution and stay within the manufacturer's recommended loads. Using more powder does nothing but increase recoil, decrease accuracy, and waste powder anyway.

 

[J.D.]

I would follow Zonies advise.

There is a point of diminishing returns where the amount of powder begins to cause more problems than it solves. Some indications of the point of diminishing returns are noticably heavier than normal recoil, heavier fouling and a substantial loss of accuracy.

IMHO, and it's only my opinion, that in a modern barrel of good quality, the point of diminishing returns will most likely be reached before the point at which the barrel will burst.

That said, as mentioned in a previous post, it is a waste of time, powder, and your shoulder to over charge any gun.

IMHO, Any powder charge over your accurate load is wasted.

And those shooting foreign made guns, how do you know what standards of quality control were used in the manufacture your barrel? QC may, or may not have been all that great.

J.D.

 

[shmrck1]

I would follow Zonies advise.
Any powder charge over your accurate load is wasted.

Johnny,
Very good advise.:hmm:
snake-eyes:hatsoff:

 

[CZMark]

After experiencing the recoil, muzzle blast and smoke from a 130 grain load, most people would decide THEIR maximum load was somewhere below 130 grains. :haha:

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you put a white sheet, or newspaper down on the ground in front of the muzzle of a gun, and look for unburned powder, you will find that at some point, well past where the gun shoots accurately, you will find increasing amounts of unburned powder on the sheet or paper after each shot. Don't confuse cinders and clinkers with unburned powder. Pour the stuff into an ashtray, or can lid after each shot, and put a match to it. If it burns, its unburned powder; if not, its just clinkers. ( Well, if you heat clinkers up enough, they will also " burn ", techniquely, but you will know the difference between even a small about of unburned powder burning, and this kind of " burn ". )

Use the formula of 11.5 grains of black powder for every cubic inch of bore. Take your bore diameter, divide it by two, then multiply that number by itself to square it. Then mulitply that number times Pi( 3.1416). Then multiply that by 11.5, and mulitply tht number by the length of your barrel in inches. This will give you a maximum amount of powder that your bore will burn in the barrel. The rest will burn outside the muzzle in the muzzle flash, or not at all, and end up on the ground.

For a .54 Caliber gun that has a 32 inch barrel. the maximum amount of powder that will burn efficiently in that gun is 85 grains. YOu can load more powder in the barrel, and you will get a slight increase in velocity for the extra powder loaded, but it will be increasing less of an increase of powder for every grain more that is added. Use a chronograph to see this.

You don't have to move a 230 grain .54 round ball out the muzzle at 2000 fps for it to kill game. Even at half that velocity, you are going to know that the gun went off, by the recoil forces you feel, as well as the muzzle blast, and that large ball will kill deer very efficiently at the lower velocities. The weight of the ball is what produces penetration on an animal. The velocity increase helps to flatten the trajectory of the ball in flight over distance, but with such a heavy round ball, with its low Ballistics Coefficient, its still a 100-150 yard hunting gun, with round ball. Now, if you use conicals in that caliber, you might be able to add 25-50 yards to that range, but then the limits of open sights reduces your ability to place the ball near your POA. All in all, there is absolutely no point to trying to make a ML rifle into a High powder 7mm magnum rifle. If you hunt with a ML rifle, you are choosing to handicap your hunt, and require that you get close to the game before trying a shot.

 

[jim gray]

Paul,

11.5 grains per cubic inch doesn't seem like a lot. Where does that number come from, and is it affected at all by gain size?

I agree with what Zonie said as well. While I don't chronograph my loads, when I shoot 85 grains of goex 2Fg in my .58 caliber renegade I get about clover leafs at 50 yards, and is potent enough to kill anything that I hunt; so what would be the point of loading a heavier charge.

My group size stayed pretty consistent up to about 100 or 105 grains, so I know that I can boost the charge a little and still get acceptable accuracy, but again what would be the point?

 

[FlintlockJonny]

Thanks for the info...I use a 70 grain charge behind the sabots that came with in my .50 cal. rifle and am dead on with open sights from 60 yards. Its the traditions redi-pak my wife got me for christmas. the pistol....lets not talk about that. I use about 15 with a spit on patch and ball and can't hit the broad side of a barn half the time.

 

[Rebel]

You need to aim at the narrow side of the barn. Remember: " Aim small. Miss small". :rotf:

 

[Stumpkiller]

. . . is there a maximum legal charge you can put in a muzzleloader?

Only in states where suicide is illegal. :winking:

I would not like to test the "impossible to overload a muzzleloader with blackpowder" theory. I have my own that says enough powder behind a ball may compress enough that the barrel feels the ball is an obstruction. Those burst barrels.

The "blown powder" theory also leaves me wondering how you factor for the powder that is consumed in the fireball in front of the muzzle with overload charges. Any of that flash burn is doing nothing to propel the ball. Some amount is burning in the open atmoshere, and I'd bet it is a goodly amount. Every night image shows that.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Tell me the length of the barrel on your .58 and I can run the formula to tell you how much powder will burn in it efficiently. The formula came from the head of the Naval ordinance forces in World War I and II, who was a member of the NMLRA and attended shoots at Friendship. He had calculations for all kinds of things related to Black powder. That was one of his formula. A barrel maker/gunmaker in New England gave it to Phil Quaglino, who gave it to my brother when he asked about it for me. I have published it here. Oh, apparently someone checked the formula and its off just slightly. You should multiply the cubic inch of the bore by 11.49, and not 11.50!!!! Shame on me! Phil held at one time 5 national records with Black powder rifles and pistols. He is the NMLRA State Representative for N. Florida, and a retired barrel maker, and gun builder.

For your .58, Multiply the length of your barrel, in inches, by 3.04. That will give you the maximum powder charge.

 

[sparsons]

or he could just go 3.0357556 times the length of the barrel. Done did the easy part for him. Based on a .58 cal. :bow:

 

[Steve A.]

That's really interesting. I'd never heard that before. If my math is correct(and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if it's not lol ),the a .50 with a 32 inch barrel comes out to 72 grains?

 

[Zonie]

No. It is 72.1938. :rotf: :grin:

Oh, that thing about plugging the barrel on both ends after filling it with powder was done by Turner Kirkland, founder of Dixie Gunworks.
It was an experiment to see if the short section (about 12 inches) could take the pressure and was not really a "proof test".
As I recall from the story he wrote about it, he was the most surprised one of the bunch who witnessed it.

zonie

 

[paulvallandigham]

KidMaverick: You have that correct. But don't despair. If you run that over a chronograph you get a pretty respectable velocity for a round ball. Remember, that the RB has terrible Ballistics coefficient, and sheds velocity very fast. The faster you shoot it out the barrel, the faster it slows. That is one of Newton's Laws of Relativity.

That .50 caliber round ball gun is basically a 100-150 yard MAX. hunting firearm, and within that distance it does an absolutely superior job of killing game. Too many people insist on trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, instead of just enjoying hunting with a primitive weapon and learning its limitations. The satisfaction of letting a deer get within yards of you before you shoot is a very special feeling, and only modern archers have a clue what we are talking about. Short range shooting is what we share with the Bow and Arrow hunters. Sadly, there are archers who are trying to set up their equipment so they can take shots at deer over 50 yards, using compound bows, scopes, overdraw systems, very light arrows. etc. I practiced long range archery when I was a kid and got fairly good at it with a stick bow. However, I would never ever shoot at a deer at the long ranges we practiced. My respect for deer would not allow me to do that. I also pass on some shots with my ML rifles, and certainly with my smoothbore. If you don't let them walk away, you don't have a great story about the " One that got away " to share with your family and friends for years to come! That is part of the tradition of hunting, too. Embrace it. :thumbsup:

 

[d.thomson]

Well said Paul. I have let more deer walk while bow hunting than I have shot at and killed. I haven't missed a deer yet. any I feel comfortable to shoot at have made it to the freezer. My 2 cents F.K.

 

[KHickam]

I DO NOT recommend this - for any reason - that being said - I once double charged my fusil de chasse - I shot a 120 gr 2F hunting load with a .600 RB for elk - So, it was in effect a 240 gr 2F load with a big round ball over it - the effect was devastating on both ends I was kneeling when I touched it off and when I picked myself up off the ground - there was a very dead elk on the other end. I also had a very sore shoulder for what seemed like a week or more. However, it did clear my head completely - about watching what I was doing when loading a muzzleloader. :shocked2:

 

[Blizzard of '93]

A 30-06 case holds 72 gr. 3F, that is my hunting load with my .50 capper. I have shot more but shooting over snow covered ground I found a lot of 'specks' on it and at dusk a huge 'flameball'.
I use .50 gr load for plinking usually - why waste powder unless practicing with your hunting load? shooting over snow with that load there isn't many 'specks' on the snow.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Oh, that thing about plugging the barrel on both ends after filling it with powder...

Around here we call that a "pipe bomb". :grin: