Maximum loads

[Horace]

I am aware that TC and some others publish suggested loads for their guns, but others such as Pedersoli publish rather vague information. I am not talking about accurate loads, but rather dangerous loads. What do you guys think about maximum loads?

 

[roundball]

I am aware that TC and some others publish suggested loads for their guns, but others such as Pedersoli publish rather vague information. I am not talking about accurate loads, but rather dangerous loads. What do you guys think about maximum loads?

I've lived by TC's published load data for 15+ years, several calibers, projectiles, and charges...and believe them to be safe, accurate, reliable, etc.

I believe published max loads are established by a manufacturer at a conservative level with a very significant amount of margin for error as a safeguard against liability;

I've always believed in and use max/near-max roundball loads for whitetails in .45/.50/.54cals, and in the .58cal I just use an 80% load with that big ball;

 

[WV_Hillbilly]

I am aware that TC and some others publish suggested loads for their guns, but others such as Pedersoli publish rather vague information. I am not talking about accurate loads, but rather dangerous loads. What do you guys think about maximum loads?

When you say that Pedersoli and others publish "vague information", how do mean...? Do you think that the loads are intentionally far below the actual maximums? or do you think that the listed loads are going far beyond what would be a safe load?

Most people who have even a little experience with shooting muzzleloaders know that generally speaking, the most accurate load is NOT a maximum load or usually anywhere near maximum.

Are you suggesting that manufacturers would intentionally over-rate their guns maximum loads for marketing purposes?

I personally feel that the T/C sidelock manual that I have is the most closely realistic in their listing of maximum loads.

I proof test any/all muzzleloader that I own before I trust it for regular use. The loads that I use are far beyond what a normal hunting situation would require, and I'm NOT going to list them here. After the gun passes the test (BTW, I have NOT had "any" fail my proof testing) only then do I feel confident and safe about using a "maximum load" in that particular gun.

As far as those "150gr magnum" load ratings goes, they apply to a category of "muzzleloader" that is not discussed on this forum. I wouldn't shoot a load that heavy regularly anyway... in any muzzleloader that I've ever owned.

Shoot Safely!
WV_Hillbilly

PS What's the first thing you should do when you get your new muzzleloader home?

 

[pepperbelly]

PS What's the first thing you should do when you get your new muzzleloader home?

Clean it thoroughly.
Jim

 

[KampKool]

I've just inherited my dad's T/C renegade 54Cal. flintlock. He had been introduced to BP In the 70's by a co-worker who was bit into shooting, had a garage set up to do gun smithing. Dad did not have a powder measure just a collection of glasss vials & a funnel.

Going thru his stuff I decided to get a measure and other accessories. Since I didn't find any "Opps!, I Goofed" accessories like a ball puller, etc.; I figured his co-worker had all that and was the guy who started him w/ the glass vials. [they were both ex-marines so powder, patch, ball was no harder than rembering the difference between a rifle and a gun!]

Each of the (5) loads I checked was 15 - 20 grns over the 120 grn T/C max load! I got just under 90 grns extra from the (5) loads. I told mom that he had pushed the limit some & all she said was 'that sounds like your father."

Dad never compalined about recoil but he used to say his flinter kicked some...I'm glad I measured them before I tried shooting it! ::

 

[WV_Hillbilly]

PS What's the first thing you should do when you get your new muzzleloader home?

Clean it thoroughly.
Jim

I had something different in mind, but cleaning is right at the top of the list as well... maybe that should be 1st on the list? What do you think about reading the entire manual through a couple of times first...? That's what I usually do unless the gun is so covered in grease that I can't even hold it without "getting slimed".

I don't think either of us are right or wrong, but "getting familiar with the gun" is what we both are really doing... that has to be pretty important, don't ya think?

Shoot Safely!
WV_Hillbilly

 

[pepperbelly]

You are right. Most will need to read the manual to figure out how to take it apart to clean it.
I collect old C&R military rifles. They usually come with a very generous amount of cosmoline. It does prevent rust though, so I can't gripe.
The first thing we do, and tell rookie collectors to do, is to disassemble and clean very thoroughly. Cosmo gets into small spots and can cause a lot of problems, like a sticky firing pin.
WV, we are on the same page, just different paragraphs. :crackup:
Jim

 

[Zonie]

I would go by the manufactures guidelines.
As was mentioned, the MAX loads usually do not give the best accuracy and accuracy is probably more important than raw power when your hunting.

Yes, the manufactures have left some safety margin in their recommendations, but we are talking about human life here.

If I couldn't get the manufactures book, I would use the Lyman "Black Powder Handbook and Loading Manual" values.
These loads by the way get into some pretty impressive chamber pressures, like over 31,000 Pounds per square inch for a 100 grain Pyrodex RS load with a .45 cal Buffalo HP Conical 325 grain bullet in a 28 inch long, 1:48 twist barrel. Now that's a stiff load in some modern guns with them funny brass things that will never catch on.

 

[roundball]

".....the MAX loads usually do not give the best accuracy and accuracy is probably more important than raw power when your hunting....."

IMO, I worry about statements that are so cut and dried, and not clarified that they can give the wrong impression to someone just starting out...for example, the degree of difference in accuracy we're talking about is virtually of no consequence except to a bullseye shooter who uses a micrometer or small ruler to to measure group size.

I agree with results published by people like Sam Fadala, et al, who promote the belief that power trumps micrometer measured accuracy for hunting every time, and my own years of hunting experience support that as well.

There is no difference of any significance in the deer woods between a group size of 1.5" vs. 1" at 50yds...my max load hunting loads print in a 3" aim point sticker at 75 yards while sitting in a lawn chair...that's 90grns of Goex 3F.

I think those kind of results with full power hunting loads are extremely acceptable and give far more assurance that a sure, humane kill will be made on a deer, particularly in the woods estimating yardages, and usually under marginal light conditions, than a slightly smaller 2" group at 75yds only using 1/2-2/3 power.

If anyone experiences large, wild, bizarre differences in group size just by increasing powder charges by 20grns or so, then I submit there are other components or issues that are the root causes, not the powder charge itself.

If you go up to a good strong big game hunting load and the group opens up unacceptably, then things like overpowder wads, thicker patches, lube, flinching, etc, all need to be reviewed and tweaked.

eace: :m2c:

 

[3 stinky dogs]

I use max loads in smokeless guns and it is fine as I have a spent case and other high pressure indicaters to warn me if things are getting out of control.What do I look for in a ML as an indicater?

 

[RiverRat]

"I use max loads in smokeless guns and it is fine as I have a spent case and other high pressure indicaters to warn me if things are getting out of control.What do I look for in a ML as an indicater?"

sore shoulder?
:hmm:

 

[roundball]

I use max loads in smokeless guns and it is fine as I have a spent case and other high pressure indicaters to warn me if things are getting out of control.What do I look for in a ML as an indicater?

Any references I make to 'max loads' are simply the loads published by the manufacturers.

In my case, I use TC firearms and TC's published recommendations listed in load data tables in the back of their Black Powder Manual.

Example:
A max round ball load might be listed at 110grns of 2F...I use 90grns of 3F...a 19% reduction from the 2F max load.

 

[Runner]

Roundball, I have to call you on this one. I have had many guns over the years with a sweet spot that would put up shotgun patterns 20 grains on either side of that load. This is a true story.

Saturday of Easter Weekend is a once a year meat shoot. I had read about Rusty Duck cleaning patches and solvent online. I bought some and took some of the patches to swab with between shots. First shot, right on. Secound shot, 5 inches right. Third shot, who knows at 30 yards. Took gun, patched the heck out of it to get the rusty duck out of it completely. Ran a couple of patches with Jerry L's Moose Milk after the barrel was clean. I took second, and that third shot was my last sighter. The Rusty duck was throwing my gun off enough at 30 yards to miss a piece of printer paper! That doesn't sound all that crazy until I add that I was running a dry patch after the rusty duck patch. Never doubt that these guns can be sensitive enough for 5 grains to make a big difference, not 20. Change the patch thickness on my 36 and the squirrels are all safe. Having said that, most of the time you can adjust the pieces to fit the load level you are looking to use. If you want to use a 100 grain 3f load under a ball on a fifty with 1-48 rifling, you might have to get a thicker patch material, a different lube, a 495 ball, or something else to get it to work. I shoot 70 and try to place my shots well. I watched a great big doe walk by at 100 yards the last day of season last year because that was farther than I like to shoot off hand at deer. If I was going to shoot 100 yards, I would work up a full power load!

 

[Tahquamenon]

Two different loads in my view:
1) Large and/or Dangerous Game Hunting
2) Targeting/Plinking/Small Game

For large and or dangerous game hunting purposes with only one shot, I always load up towards the maximum MFG recommeded load while still maintaining accuracy.

If the max allowable says 120Gr FFG then I load up to that if 120gr holds decent hunting accuracy (1-4" at 100 yards) then that's what I hunt with or slightly less. If 90 grains is where the best hunting load accuracy materializes and the given rifle's max allowable loading data will support that load, then 90gr is what I hunt with.

Why? I don't want to leave any possible deliverable energy on the table in a hunting situation.

Do I heavy load for all day shooting? Certainly not, rough on both me and the rifle plus chews up a bunch of powder.

Targeting/plinking/smaller game, different story. I load for the absolute most accurate and comfortable to shoot all day long.

You will find the Pedersoli is very conservative with their load data. If you are not sure, send them an email and I'm sure they can help with loading data for your rifle or pistol.
mailto:[email protected]

:m2c:

 

[roundball]

".....I had read about Rusty Duck cleaning patches and solvent online...The Rusty duck was throwing my gun off enough at 30 yards to miss a piece of printer paper!....."

".....Change the patch thickness on my 36 and the squirrels are all safe...."

Having said that, most of the time you can adjust the pieces to fit the load level you are looking to use.

Actually Runner, it sounds like we're in lock step on this...you made the same points that I was talking about...your examples had to do with components, not large powder charges.

ie: you found rusty duck to be a problem, accuracy settled down when you got rid of rusty duck, not by reducing your powder charge;

Your .36cal accuracy deteriorated when you changed patches, etc...not by increasing your powder charge;

Those are the points I was making...when I've increased my powder charges to max or near-max and the group opened up a little, I just had to tweak something, like moving from .015" patches to .018"...or adding a wonderwad, etc, etc...but I've always been able to use max hunting loads accurately by making a minor adjustment or two.

For me, if that 100yd doe you mentioned had been a B&C buck, I don't want to have to sit there and fight my conscience over whether I could shoot or not due to a mid range powder charge or something...::

 

[3 stinky dogs]

Case head seperation,raised pierced primer's ,Difficulty extracting spent cases Etc,Etc (i dont want to pollute the thread with modern stuff)Is the only way to tell if a load is to hot for your ML is if it blows up ?or do you get signs? leading burnt patches etc?

 

[Runner]

Recoil will get worse naturally. The hammer may be driven back up to either the half cock notch or maybe even full cock on a cap gun. The patch will be damaged. One thing you have to realize is this. With black you will not approach that level rapidly. Another ten grains is not going to blow the gun unless there is an obstruction or something is wrong with the gun. Double loading is painful but usually not dangerous. If you have a heavy load in it and forget your ramrod in the barrel, you will have a bruise but the gun will most likely be ok! Within reason, these guns are safe beyond most errors you will do. The biggest danger is not a double load of powder or even leaving the ramrod in the bore. The biggest danger is in short starting a bullet or ball and then not ramming it down on the powder. Now that has destroyed a few barrels over the years. Different world from cartridge reloading where two grains might be too much. Depending on several factors, loads done using a measure may be 5 grains different on a regular basis if you weigh them to check, and it makes very little difference.

 

[Horace]

That confirms what I had always heard. In effect you may hurt your shoulder, but you are not likely to blow up the gun (within reason)with an overcharge.