Maximum shot range without jug choking???

[fw707]

Well, I'm gonna get a .62 smoothbore from Mr. Tip Curtis in a couple of weeks, and I haven't decided whether to get one that's been jug-choked or not. I would like to be able to deer hunt with it and get the better accuracy that seems to go along with a non-choked barrel, but I want to get the best pattern I can for turkey hunting too.
Can some of y'all give me an idea of what kind of patterns and the maximum effective range I can expect from a straight non-choked barrel, and any suggestions for shot loads in barrels without a choke??
I realize I can't get the best of both worlds from one barrel, but I really can't afford to buy 2 guns right now either. Later maybe, but not right now.
What say y'all?? :hmm:

 

[Russianblood]

The short answer is 25yds or less. Of course, you'll have to work up a load that works well in your particular smoothbore. There are a ton of posts on this sight about getting the most from a smoothbore.

 

[Rebel]

Mine shot really well with 80 grs of Goex 3f and a .595 ticking patched rd ball. Also shot well with 70 gr of Goex 3f an overpowder wad, half a lubed cushion wad, 1 1/8 oz of #5 shot. I took a hen turkey this fall with that load at between 20-25 yds. I would say 25 yds max with shot and don't get the jug choke if you want to shoot rd balls too.

 

[fw707]

Rb and rebel, thanks to both of you for the replies! From what y'all say I'm gonna have a good turkey killing pattern out to about 25 yards with a straight smoothbore .62 barrel, and still have a barrel that will shoot RB's accurately.
Maybe somebody else can tell me how much range the jug choke is gonna add to my shotgun patterns if I'm gonna use it strictly for shotgunning for turkeys.
Rb, I've done a bunch of searches on this subject, and I ain't been able to find any specifics on the details, but I'm gonna keep looking! :grin:

Thanks!!

 

[Russianblood]

Try searching "shot cup". That's usually what is discussed when trying to tighten up patterns. That and "more shot, less powder" are the standard ways of tightening up a cylinder bored shotgun's pattern.

 

[No Deer]

Check out this site, there is a wealth of information here on shooting the smoothbore, using both shot and roundball. Very excellent site for learning more about smoothbores.
[url] http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen[/url]/

 

[paulvallandigham]

It depends on how much choke you put in the barrel. Seriously, you can order any amount of constriction, to achieve whatever pattern density you want, assuming the barrel walls are thick enough. Generally, with a Fowler, the walls are thick enough. As for distance, you are pushing it, even with a full choke barrel to be getting good patterns beyond 40 yds. Unless you use plastic shot cups, or shotcups made with heavy paper, you are not going to get patterns similar to those fired with modern shells at those long ranges. And, unless you are very practiced at shooting long range targets, hitting them with a flintlock fowler is going to be a lot harder to do, one way or another.

The secret to good patterns in open cylinder guns is lower velocity, and not higher velocity. Read V.M. Starr's article on shotgun loads in Bob Spenser's Black Powder Notebook.

[url] http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html[/url]

I think you will gain much information, and even re-think whether you need to jug choke that gun. I have killed dove out to 35 yds with an open choked cartridge shotgun, but again, remember that the shot is protected by that plastic shotcup, giving it more range before the shot leaves the cup. I use the same light 2 3/4 dram eq. load I use to shoot Trap( 1 1/8 oz of #8 shot) because I don't want to blow the pattern as happens if I raise the powder charge even with that shotshell load. I found that the same load works in a 12 ga.using Black powder for the propellant, producing similar patterns.

 

[roundball]

Maybe somebody else can tell me how much range the jug choke is gonna add to my shotgun patterns if I'm gonna use it strictly for shotgunning for turkeys.

My jug choked .62cal GM Flint smoothbore barrel averages 16 - #6's in a 5" circle at 40 yards

 

[fw707]

Thank you very much Roundball!!!!
That's exactly what I was looking for. :winking:
What's your powder charge and shot load for that pattern?
I know that if I reduce the powder charge and increase the shot charge I'll probably get tighter patterns, but it looks to me like you'll eventually get to a point where you'll get a good pattern, but your pellets won't have enough energy to kill a turkey.

 

[roundball]

Thank you very much Roundball!!!!
That's exactly what I was looking for. :winking:
What's your powder charge and shot load for that pattern?
I know that if I reduce the powder charge and increase the shot charge I'll probably get tighter patterns, but it looks to me like you'll eventually get to a point where you'll get a good pattern, but your pellets won't have enough energy to kill a turkey.

This is an excellent reference article:[url] http://members.aye.net/~bspen/SmoothboreLoads.html[/url]

My Turkey Load
33" Jug Chocked .62cal GM Flint smoothbore barrel:

80grns Goex 3F
One Oxyoke wonderwad
1+5/8oz #6 hard shot
Circle Fly O/S card

Average pellets in a full 9” paper plate:
10yds = 214 pellets
20yds = 114
30yds = 60
40yds = 44

Average pellets in 5" circle:
10yds = 126
20yds = 43
30yds = 25
40yds = 16

 

[fw707]

Thanks roundball!!
I think I'm gonna go ahead and get a jug-choked gun and use it for shotgunning only, and I might just see if I can get Mr. Curtis to build me a .54 Jaeger flinter for the other stuff. :winking:
I appreciate your replies and the good info!!

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Thanks roundball!!
I think I'm gonna go ahead and get a jug-choked gun and use it for shotgunning only, quote]
A tight choke is required for head shots on turkey, but that makes a rather specialized gun. The turkey gun is handled more like a rifle, carefully aimed at a stationary or slow moving target. For the general run of "shotgunning" a full choke is really a handicap. Most shots at quail, rabbits, grouse and even ducks come at short range where the tight pattern of a full choke will either miss or pulverize.
Variable chokes, like the polychoke, interchangeable choke tubes and interchangeable barrels all were developed and became popular because no ONE choke can ever be just right for all game and hunting conditions but in the fowler you are limited to one choke and of them all, the full choke is the most specialized. I prefer just a slight choke, about .005", like improved cylinder or skeet choke. That is enough to round up and even out the pattern without making it too tight. Where as a true cylinder may put 30% to 40% of its' pellets in a 30" circle at 40 yards, with many gaps and open areas, the imp.cyl. will go about 50% with a bit of "central thickening" which helps put pellets in the kill zone for those turkey heads while still having an effective fringe area to drop quail that you may have "almost missed". :grin:

 

Well, I don't want to start a ruckus or anything--and what y'all do with your guns is up to you--but since you asked for opinions: chokes belong on pump Remingtons, O/U Brownings, Automatic Berettas, and the like, not on 18th cent fowlers and fusils. Ya' jes' hafta callem in closer when you use a period smoothie! Personally, I hunt turkeys with a extra full choke 12 gauge Beretta. I just might try out my .62 Tulle fusil one of these days, but I know in advance that I'll have to get CLOSE![or get them to come close]. my buddy really wanted to get a turkey with a .50 smoothrifle and I tried to talk sense into him, but it wasn't until the patterning board 'spoke' that he realized the problem. He tried shot cups made from penny wrappers with no luck--best he could do at 40 yrds on a turkey neck/head target was one measly pellet hit out of four shotloads! [of course one of the loads came out without busting the 'cup' and cartwheeled en masse into the target over a foot off center]. You handicap yourself with a period smoothie--but that is the idea! You have to hunt differently or get a cartridge gun...choking a period gun is akin to using an inline IMHO--same principle behind it: trying to achieve modern ballistics for hunting with MLers. But like I said first: each to his own. Play with it outside. :grin:

 

P.S. in the 'good ol days' the turkey hunters typically used round balls or 'swan shot'/buck shot/etc on the big birds, so choke would have been no real concern even if it existed. Modern game laws in most states lead us to the dilemma of chokes and fine shot for turkeys--but a few states still allow rifles.

 

[Leatherbark]

I'd get the smoothbore clyinder bore and shoot the turkey with a big round ball..........It will be accurate enough for that at 40 yards..............Bob

 

[paulvallandigham]

I have to agree with Mike. If you choose to hunt with a ML shotgun, you understand that you have to HUNT, and not just shoot the game you hunt. You have to get them in close, or get closer to the game before you shoot. A 25-35 yd. shot at a turkey is a long shot. You will spend days at a range, with a patterning board to find a load that shoots an even pattern and delivers the shot in a tight enough core pattern at a known range. I know some hunters, who, like many archers, actually put ranging stakes out around their stands so they can know exactly how far the turkey is from their muzzles. And, some days, you are not going to get that turkey to come in close enough, no matter what you do.

Its called Hunting, not " getting ", for that reason. Others might disagree.

300 years ago, game was much more plentiful. people very rare, and early hunters reported no trouble walking to within a few yards of turkeys and bison, and deer. I have had deer come up to me within 6 feet, with me standing next to a small tree, dressed from head to toe in Blaze orange. So, it does still happen. You do have to practice standing, or sitting still. Most people can't do that these days.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I have to agree with Mike. If you choose to hunt with a ML shotgun, you understand that you have to HUNT, and not just shoot the game you hunt. You have to get them in close, or get closer to the game before you shoot. A 25-35 yd. shot at a turkey is a long shot. You will spend days at a range, with a patterning board to find a load that shoots an even pattern and delivers the shot in a tight enough core pattern at a known range. I know some hunters, who, like many archers, actually put ranging stakes out around their stands so they can know exactly how far the turkey is from their muzzles. And, some days, you are not going to get that turkey to come in close enough, no matter what you do.

Its called Hunting, not " getting ", for that reason. Others might disagree.

300 years ago, game was much more plentiful. people very rare, and early hunters reported no trouble walking to within a few yards of turkeys and bison, and deer. I have had deer come up to me within 6 feet, with me standing next to a small tree, dressed from head to toe in Blaze orange. So, it does still happen. You do have to practice standing, or sitting still. Most people can't do that these days.

 

[roundball]

Mike, I've seen a number of posts over the years that 'Jug Chokes' were indeed from the early American muzzleloading era...not a modern add-on thing.

Are you saying they were not...that they are a modern day invention?

 

[Mike Brooks]

It's all in how you want to play the game. I can see it both ways, and If I were a turkey hunter I'd have one jug choked gun and one cylinder bored gun and kill turkys with both. Besides you can never have enough guns. :winking:
I've built guns for a friend of mine that hunts turkeys in 8 states. He hunts only with flint fowlers and jug chokes all of them. He's taken birds out to 40 yards with a 50 " barreled 10 bore with .040 jug. He told me that gun will throw killing patterns out to 50 yards the way he loads it. His loads have been poo pooed here, so I won't go into them. :winking: He learned the hard way not to shoot birds with that gun closer than 30 yards, it will bust them up pretty bad.
He went the other way with the last gun I built him, It was a 20 bore with a 40" barrel and about .025 jug. He told me even the 20 bore would kill out to 40 yards, I believe he took a several birds with it under 30 yards.
Personally I think a cylinder bored gun is a 20 yard gun, maybe 25 if you really work with your loads.
I've hunted alot of pheasants with cylinder bored 20 bores and would recommend a close working dog breed like a Vizla to be succesfull.
>

 

[CoyoteJoe]

About anything you can think of and lots of stuff you wonder why anyone thought of has been tried at some time or other. Some researcher may come up with an early example of something that resembles a choke but 1868 was the year of Mr. Pape's first paten and 1873 was the year of Mr. Fred Kimbal's experiments which were then brought to final development by W.W. Greener in the later 1870's. During the muzzleloading era there was a belief that shot patterns were improved by slightly "opening" or relieving the bore near the muzzle, just the opposite of a true choke and that may be the origin of the rumor that choke boring dates to an earlier time. Rather like the notion that inlines date back to the early flint period. Someone may have made an experimental piece but if it had worked it would not have taken another 200 years to catch on or to be patented. Once Mr. Greener worked out the details nearly every breech loader made was choke bored. Jug choking is probably an even more recent development as an expedient to put some choke into a barrel originally built without such, for those of us who wish to upgrade the performance of an "outdated" muzzleloader. :grin: