measuring powder without a powder measure?

[mattybock]

I don't think the backwoods hunters of old days had fancy basspro stores or catalogs avaible at the click of a mouse- so I got to thinking, how did the old men measure off a primary load of powder? How did they know what a grain was, or how much to put in?

I read somewhere that the old way involved putting the ball in your palm, and pouring powder over the ball until it was covered. The amount of powder in your hand was the amount used. I don't know if this is accurate, or even safe!

How did they do it?

 

[jsn]

on some old horns they had carved powder measures..... like a small scoop

 

[Stumpkiller]

I read an article some time back that claimed the gunsmith would have provided the owner with a tin measure that was used when the sights were regulated.

Ever try pouring powder off your palm into the muzzle after fishing the ball out from the pile? :wink:

 

[luieb45]

From what I've read they had antler measures. I also read that they found one of the famous trappers powder measures and it was 40 grains. In this trapper's journal he noted he used 1 measure for deer, 2 for elk and buffalo, 3 for bear. I'm not sure if I'd want to use that light of a charge on deer though. It'd kill 'em good within 50 yards I bet if you don't hit the shoulder.

 

[Bill Hall]

When I first started shooting black powder, my dad told me I was supposed to pour the powder down the barrel from a powder horn, and count to five :rotf: .

I think powder measures were used more than lore would let on. You can easily make a measure for the best load for your gun and not ever know what it weighs. All one needs to do is use a basic "tube" to fill to a certain amount, and keep increasing the load until the shot just "feels right", or is most accurate. Then the powder could be dumped into a wooden, or deer antler, holder, and cut down to the top of the powder. Who knew what it weighed, and who cared.

I've heard that the oldtimers sometimes would work up a load by adding powder until they heard the shot make a "crack" sound, which indicates that the round is breaking the sound barrier, even though they didn't have any notion of "sound barrier". Bill

 

[necchi]

How did they know what a grain was, or how much to put in?

Mankind has been measuring and weighing things for the sole purpose of selling and buying for thousands of years. So the concept of a measured amount didn't require a college education.

Cost of powder being part of the equasion when you used some in a gun, ment you didn't just pour a handfull down there and hope it wasn't too much. And they needed to make each shot count for something,,meaning they where accurate with the shots they took, that kind of accuracy needed a same amount of powder right?
Cane is hollow, so is a reed stem, a hot metal rod poked in the center of a stick would work. They had guns, so other tools to work metal was around tool.
Some kind of device to measure powder has been around since the first match locks.
An it's not suprising that olde Grandpa got a good idea of how much powder he needed looked like poured in his hand.

 

[mattybock]

so it was a guessing game? I guess the idea of a grain is either a gunsmith's term or a late 1800s manufacturer's term rather than an everyday hunter's term.

I just hope my barrel (50 caliber traditions st. louis hawken kit) don't blow up. Can anyone give me a general idea of how much ten grains is in terms of what can be filled by ten grains?

How many grains of FFg powder can fit into a thimble, a leveled off tablespoon, or maybe a common shot glass?

 

[R.M.]

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/247958/post/new/#NEW

 

[necchi]

Oh, I git it. Why didn't ya just say you ain't got a measure?
Got a drill an a 3/8 bit? Drill a hole in a piece of wood.
Every 1/4 inch deep is about 9 grns.
1" is about 36grns
1 1/2's is about 54
2" deep x 3/8 is about 72
I just checked and a level teaspoon is darn close to 70 grns,(thats the measurin kind, not the common table type eatin spoon).
Hope that help's, along with the cartridges link. In my experiance most 50's are happy around 70-75 grns.
:wink:
Go to the local Drug store and tell the pharmisit you gotta dose a 2yr old with liquid tylenol and ask for a measure, he might just give ya one. They usually have a gaduation on the side for Ml's and teaspoon, that'll give ya some marks on a measuring devise to work with. We now know a teaspoon/5ml is about 70 and ya can work from there.

 

[mattybock]

thanks necchi! I didn't want to spend money on something that just wasn't common to 1825 or before. I figured there were folk ways of measuring one's powder, and I think I got all the information I need.

Thanks everybody!

 

[ken.clements]

just take and old bullet casing...45/70 for example......measure once for 60 70 80 grains and cut it off.
I've tried this and its accurate +/- 2 grains

 

[Tom Compton]

Scales and adjustable powder measures certainly existed.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=12716.0
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=13194.0

 

[123.DieselBenz]

Also . . . a grain was a standard measurement, it equals 1/7000 of a pound, 7000 grains are in a pound.

If your shooting a 70 gr load you will get 100 shots out of a pound of powder.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I got my first ML rifle, a .36 caliber, long before Track of the Wolf began business. I was 14 years old, with no money and no place to buy ML accessories if I had the money. To get a rough idea of charge I balanced a 12" ruler across a round pen, placed 5 aspirin tablets on one end and poured powder on the other until it balanced, then made a measure to hold that amount. :haha:
But to the point, yes they did have powder measures, both fixed and adjustable. They may not have known the exact weight of the charge but they knew what worked. Today, I like the idea of the cartridge case measures, I've made several by shortening them to hold the exact charge, grinding off the rim and soldering a loop of copper wire into the primer pocket. The chart posted on this forum is a great resource to help get you started.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Supposedly a grain of "Wheat" was used to determine the "weight" of a grain. 7000 grains of wheat= 1 lb.

I suspect the hybrid wheat we grow today may produce, larger heavier "grains". :idunno: :hmm:

Everyone HAS to start somewhere with measurements, so that there is a common meaning to the terms. Weights and measures have been subject to local standards for thousands of years. Hunters relied on the gunmaker to give them a mold, that would cast the right diameter ball and weight of ball for the rifle, along with a powder measure ( fixed, volume) for the correct load to "zero" the gun. The hunter may not ever have owned a SCALE, but the gunsmith did. He had many other uses for a scale.

So, you don't want to buy an adjustable powder measure, or scale. Nice, if you can sponge off someone else. You might at least offer to pay someone a bit of money to use their scales to check your "powder measure".

We talk about WEIGHT( measured in "grains") but we then use volume measures to "measure the powder charge. We don't take scales out into the field with us to WEIGH the powder charge. But, every powder measure- commercially made, or handmade, begins with some form of recognized scale or measure that has been made to scale of weight by someone. :hmm:

 

[kelleyjk]

Hard to believe anyone couldve done anything without BassPro shops iPhones or the Internet isnt it Matty?


My guess is a few folks figured out how to build stuff back then, that way they didnt have to pay UPS to deliver it either :rotf:

edit: on 2nd thought after reading subsequent posts, this probably isnt all that funny. You should get a owners manual and seek some local advice before attempting to fire you muzzleloading rifle

 

[kelleyjk]

Supposedly a grain of "Wheat" was used to determine the "weight" of a grain. 7000 grains of wheat= 1 lb.

I suspect the hybrid wheat we grow today may produce, larger heavier "grains". :idunno: :hmm:

what about buckwheat which isnt really wheat at all?

 

[oldude]

Buy an adjustable powder measure,round up some wood,horn or bone.Measure out 10 grns and make a measure from your chosen material then make the next one at 15 grns and so on until you have them made up to 120-150 grns then throw away/store/trade/sell the adjustable. Even the old timers used scales and measures. Bent

 

[necchi]

Well now that ya have an idea where to begin with measureing ya gotta "work up a load". That's changing just the volume of powder used while keeping everything else the same and shooting groups with the different charges.

Usually changeing the charge by 5 grns is the most productive. 60-65-70-75-80,,like that, from low to high. One of those loadings is gunna give you the tightest group, as you add more the group will open again (refered to as "the point of diminishing returns") your not gaining anything by useing too much powder if accuracy is what your after.

So some day it's a good idea to find one of the adjustable measures. What the measure says isn't as important as haveing some way to change the amount, then transfer that volume to something else.
I have a couple that are used to find that sweet load. Once found I transfer that volume of powder to something I've drilled or hollowed out to measure my charge. Iv'e used Cedar heart wood, Deer bones, but currently have several from Deer and Elk antler.

Go on down to the Craftmen section and scroll back some pages and find some pictures of what some guys have done to antler and horn for measures. They can get pretty fancy what with carving an color an such,,

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Something like this.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartList.aspx?catID=1&subID=13&styleID=1190