Metal file to knife- where to start?

[kevthebassman]

I've got it in my head that I would like to take a file and turn it into a nice little fixed-blade knife. I've got some deer antlers for a handle, and access to all manner of grinders, saws, drill presses, lathes, torches, etc. I've got time and patience, and I've got a willingness to learn. What I don't have is a whole lot of know-how. :surrender:

Would any of you old salts like to walk a total beginner through the process? I've looked through the forum and gotten some ideas but I'm still not certain how to proceed.

 

[JamesG]

I am not an old salt but i make knives from Nickolson files mill and *******.To make shure you going to have to heat a piece piece of steel and quanch in it oil. then hit with a hammer if it shatters you have a good piece of steel.Are you going to hammer the steel or stock removable?
If you was a stick tang you going decided on how long to make the tang i make mine bigger then fit it to the antler.TO annaul your file you can put it in the charcaol grill and let it set over nigh,
then angle grind the file teeth off the endges and face of the file. the smoother you get the less fileing i like to leace a little for people now what it made from. after you have your knive made annaoul it 3 times. to relax the steel if u choose to forge your blade.then your a mill file and draw file your bevels and edge to where you like it .I go down to there a edge then file the edge back to 1/16 of inch that away you do not have a broken blade or warped . I then sand the blade to get the file marks sand down, i start with and old 80 grit piece of belt sander belt. then an 60 grit with wd 40 then then down to 3oo grit,I use caniol oil heat to 115 to 120 . heat the blade to none magnentic and that the whole blade even color . then put it in the oil while moveing the blade up and down for i do not get a temper line. let it set in some hot vinger and and clean it with a wire brush . heat the oven to 350 degree F. make shure you use a inside thermoter. bake three times each time let it cool to the touch or use a torch and run the torch over the spine and get the edge a straw color. this way is easy way to miss up the temper. i have a sink full of water to stop the color change. For the tang i take a damp rag and place it around the edge then heat the tang with the tourch to it red. that away i can drill the hole. for pins you can use nails. welding rod . brass rod copper rod. I put 30 mint epoxy on the tang and in some the hone in the antle. then sharpen with stones . This is the way i do mine knives.I shur other people well chim in.

here some i did with files.

 

[kevthebassman]

Many thanks. I'm going to try to avoid forging, at least until I get a few builds under my belt.

 

[hotsparks]

Not terribly difficult, two ways to do it (actually more)...first, assuming you have either a bench grinder, or a Makita type hand grinder, rough shape the blade. The file's tang makes a good start for the knife tang, but is a little too short, so thin the body of the file some to lengthen the tang. A word of caution no matter whish grinder you use...go slow!!!! The part being ground should never get more that uncomfortably hot. Don't use gloves, keep a coffee can full of water at hand and dip the file frequently. Once the shape is ground, start to remove metal for the edge. Same rules, go slow and keep the metal cool. Once you get to a certain point, then work the taper with a (cheap) carborindum stone. A file won't touch it, same hardness as the metal you are working, but a stone will. Once you get the taper worked in, switch over to progressivly finer stones to finish. Add the handle, then sharpen.
The other method is to anneal the file by heating it to about red and letting it slowly cool. If you light off a charcoal bar-b-que, toss the file in the coals and fish it out the next day. Annealed, the file can now be worked with another file, even sandpaper. The downside is it has to be re-hardened and tempered when you are done, not very technical, but it must be doen. Light off that grill again anf stick the new knife (less handle..LOL) back in. Fish it out and check it with a magnet, when it looses it's magnetism, punge it in a coffee can of Wesson oil, motor oile, etc. It will be nasty and you'll have to re-sand it to restore the gleem. Then sneak in the house and pre-heat the oven to 400 degrees and stick the blade in for about three hours. The oil plunge hardens the blade, but it's very brittle and not of much use. The oven removes some of the brittleness (tempers) and makes it a useful tool.
Have fun

 

[kevthebassman]

Many thanks hotsparks. I have heard of another finishing technique where one holds a wet rag or newspaper to the blade of the knife while heating the back, to keep the blade hard but make the rest of the knife less brittle. Have you heard of this?

James, those are beautiful knives.

 

[hotsparks]

Never heard of that one, when you consider that the hardening temp for a medium carbon steel is 1330-1350 degrees, that would become a mighty hot rag. JamesG spoke of a "hammon" line when hardening and this is a variation of the hardening/tempering process where a smith radid cools/hardens only the working edge. The back of the knife cools at a slower rate (though it's still hot enough to brand you) and is a little less brittle, or tougher. This technique also leaves a beautiful line if demarkation, or hammon, between the two zones that all of us bladesmiths drool over.

 

[mazo kid]

I haven't made all that many knives from files, but learned very early that grinding a hard file is tedious work. I then annealed the file to bright red and then stuck it in a big tub of ashes over night. What a difference in grinding! Yes, you then have to re-harden the blade when done, but that is easy enough to do. Emery

 

[kevthebassman]

Well, I gave it my first shot today over lunch. In a little less than an hour, I took a file and doubled the length of the tapered tail and took all of the ridges off of it. I used a belt sander and a bench grinder, and kept the file cool by frequent dunking in water.

My next lunch hour will be spent forming a blade shape and possibly starting to attempt making an edge.

 

[chipper]

Working with files is fun but very tedious. I start with drill rod. It's the same material but in the form of a rod. You don't have to spend all those hours grinding..but you do have to forge it a bit.
Forging a file is a real bummer. All those little teeth want to form a crack or fold over and cause a cold shut. Anyway, enough of me complaining.
If you do decide to grind a file at least heat it up to a non magnetic state and let It cool in a pile of ashes from a wood fire. If it's cold outside. I shove hot rods of both sides to keep it warm longer. When you pull it out, it should be pretty soft.
I would be happy to show you how to do all this stuff for free, you just have to figure out a way to get to Colorado.

Regards
Loyd Shindelbower
Loveland Colorado

 

[crockett]

How thick is the blade after you finished?

and...I am told some of the new files are inferior steel, the file needs to be an old one.

Just my opinion but you'll end up putting a lot of time in to making a knife, the blade, the guard, the handle, the sheath. If you can buy bar stock for say $10-15 a blade it seems like a lot of trouble working an old file. I have a flat truck spring that's large and 3/8" thick and I want to make a massive D guard Bowie. The only reason I would use the spring is because I can't find any other steel large and thick enough- trouble is people tell me the spring will have a memory and may curl back during heat treat.

And... I'm still looking for something about 3" wide- a foot long- 3/16 thick for a dag- can't find any suitable steel.

 

[LRB]

Nicholson files make very good blades. New, or old.

 

[J.D.]

Hmmm, Nicholson files are W1 or 1095 steel, which is a high carbon steel. I suggest tempering that file to 425-450 degrees prior to grinding. Double or triple tempering won't hurt, but isn't necessary for plain carbon steels. Double or triple temper does work well for medium carbon steels with a chrome content, 5160 steel for example.

Since oven thermostats are grossly inaccurate, tempering can be done in the kitchen oven using two oven thermometers to accurately determine the correct temp of the oven.

Wrapping the blade with wet rags can help to control the heat when heating the tang. However, IMHO, wet rags won't satisfactorily contain the heat when heating the tang to a bright red.

I suggest using a heat sink, such as about half the width of the blade clamped in a vise in addition to the wet rags. The vise will help draw heat away from the blade.

A better heat sink is placing about half the width of the blade a low pan of water, preferably with the smaller pan in a larger pan of cool water.

The best heat sink is Brownell's "Heat Stop".

IMHO, the tang heated to bright red must cool slowly, so continue to play the torch over the tang, moving the torch farther way as the tang cools.


Dang Wick, I was preparing my post when you chimed in. Since it has been too many years since I made a knife out of a file, feel free to correct any misinformation in my post.

Wick is the resident master, so when he speaks...types, I listen...read. :wink:

 

[paulvallandigham]

That 3/8" truck spring is twice as thick as you ever would want to make a Bowie knife blade. I used a Pre-WWII truck spring that was 3/16" thick, and it was too much metal.( I still have it). I would not worry about "memory". That is more myth than reality.

The metal has to be annealed before working it. Stock removal is done with saws, grindstones, and files. As the old saying goes, " You remove everything that doesn't look like a Bowie Knife--- and what you have left IS a Bowie Knife!"

Hardening such a large piece of metal does take some care, and the correctly sized equipment. If you don't have a gas furnace to do this, you might want to have this work done by someone who does. I believe someone mentioned that one of the suppliers offers such a service to knife makers. Tempering is even a more important aspect to this work.

My first knife was a Bowie Knife. I was 12 years old, and of course, had to have the Biggest Knife I could imagine. Some of the Bowie Movies were out about then, so that is what I wanted. After I made it, I didn't like my design of either the hilt( hand guard) or the handle. A few years later, I took those off and reshaped them, and put a new handle on the knife. I liked it much better. Unfortunately, I thought my machine shop teacher knew something about hardening and tempering steel, and he didn't. He thought he did, but then he thought Hardening and Tempering were the same thing. He ended up hardening the blade, but didn't temper it. I still have it, and someday I will take the handle off and temper the blade properly.

It is a huge, and very heavy knife to carry around. I began with a sheath that hung from the belt, and it bruised my hip and thigh walking around with it, not to mention all the pulling on my pants it did!

The last time I carried it in public, I used a sheath I had made for my throwing knife, which rides much higher, on the belt, and across my waist. The knife was better displayed, and rode better.

Its still too darn heavy.

I would rather carry a smaller, lighter knife for cutting and slicing, and a small axe for chopping work.

If you are building a knife for social work, there are better knives with long blades, that are only about 1" across, and not more than 3/32" thick that make much better knives for those purposes. Remember that the "fighting " knife evolved out of the short sword, not out of the fighting axe!

 

[davy]

Paul is right ... when I wanted to build a large Bowie I chose a 3/8 leaf spring and had a friend on here forge it for me. It was way too thick (and bulky, and heavy, etc), he tried to warn me it was too thick at 3/8, but I forced the issue .. wished I had not. I had to grind on it forever to get it down to a reasonable thickness .. starting with 3/16 is IMHO about right .. you may well want to be thinner once you get there ... mileage will differ with each person. :hmm: Live & learn! :grin:

Davy

 

[JamesG]

When i make a bowie or large knive i use leaf spring I cut them in half useing a hot cut. then i draw the point out and then streach them out tell the blade almost 2 wide.

 

[kevthebassman]

Well gents, a few hours of work over lunch and a little after work today, and I've got a knife blade. I didn't end up annealing it, so grinding was a bit slow, but I think it turned out well. I was sanding down the tool marks, and got ahead of myself and left some areas where the sanding was visible and thought that they looked like they ought to be there, (plus it was getting late :haha: ) so there they stayed.

All the sanding and such put a fair edge on it, so when I got home tonight I put it to a steel and it's shaving sharp now. I probably ought not to have done that since I've still got to drill on it and fit the handle, but it's a little late now.

Now, about fitting that handle.... how does one do that? I've got a fair sized set of deer antlers that my grandfather shot that were gnawed on by rodents over the years. The bases are still in tact however and I can think of no better way for the memory of his best ever kill to live on than as a handle for a fine homemade knife.

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you read my post carefully, I was talking ONLY about stock removal. NOT FORGING blades. You can make a fine bowie knife blade out of a 3/8 x 3/4" wide piece of stock, if you forge it properly. when I made mine, we had no anvil, no forge, no acetylene tanks, or anything else I would have needed to forge the blade. I spent about a month of evenings after school. sawing, grinding and filing away everything that didn't look like a Bowie Knife.

It was an education. I am glad I did it back then. I do not want to do it again. Give me your forge, or I ain't making another Bowie Knife! :thumbsup:

 

[davy]

Too true ... it was shaped only ... no stock removal thickness wise was done until the blade came to me that is. It musta been a monster truck spring & was all of 3/8 when I got it! :shocked2:

Whew! what an endless job grinding & filing that thick monster down! It was a real job ... part of the learning curve for me anyway. No more 3/8 for me! :shake: :youcrazy: :surrender: :nono:

Davy

 

[LRB]

I trust you have tempered that file blade. If not it is going to be too brittle to be of much use. Simply dropping it on a hard surface could break it, and the cutting edge will chip easily in use.
If you have not already, temper at around 425°, or 450° for an hour. Temper twice, letting it cool to room temp between tempers.

 

[J.D.]

I trust you have tempered that file blade. If not it is going to be too brittle to be of much use. Simply dropping it on a hard surface could break it, and the cutting edge will chip easily in use.
If you have not already, temper at around 425°, or 450° for an hour. Temper twice, letting it cool to room temp between tempers.

That reminds me of the person who was instrumental in my getting started in knife making. This person made quite a few knives out of old files, but refused believe that files could be tempered, or rehardened once they were annealed. One particular day, he was showing off the newest and shiniest knife he had made. He was basking in the awe and wonder of a group of oooing and ahing co workers who were raving about how great his knives were. The maker wasn't paying attention when one of the awestruck members of the group handed the newly made knife back to him. He dropped that knife on the concrete floor, much to the chagrin of himself and the onlookers. The blade shattered into several pieces. Aand all that remained of that once glimmering "work of art" was a crude guard and a crudely fitted and ground micarta handle.

It was all I could do to contain my laughter, since I had been encouraging him to learn to heat treat those knives for several months.

After seeing his crude attempts at making knives, I decided that I could do a lot better. To his chagrin, I was right. :wink:

Not that I'm so good, his knives were really bad.

That last comment is not intended to imply that anyone's knives in the photos posted, as a part of this thread, are in the same league as my "mentor's." :v

kevthebassman,
I can't tell much about the edge bevel from the photo, but the bevel appears to end about the middle of the blade. I suggest grinding the bevel a little higher up the side of the blade.

The more even taper to the bevel makes for a smoother, easier cutting knife, otherwise, looks good.

Good luck,
J.D.