Middlesex Village commercial trade gun 1690-1730

[Carteret Kid]

Does anyone here have one of these ? It has a doglock and .69 caliber . You have any first hand info or evaluation ?

 

[Audubon]

Is it primarily for North Carolina use?

 

[Carteret Kid]

Yes .
In NC we have Culpepper's Rebellion , Battle of Alamance (1771) a Spanish raid on Brunswick Town 1748 and Blackbeards pirates .

 

[Audubon]

Thank you - perhaps others are not in tune to our state’s rich history. I'm keenly aware of it; in fact I’m neck deep in it daily.

Are you looking at the brand for the price or historical accuracy?

 

[Carteret Kid]

One always looks at price , but my main questions would be historic accuracy and general quality . The gun I am lookind for would be what a colonial would have but not an ideal one . History tends to catch people by surprise , less than ideally prepared .
I am facinated by poor boy guns . I am looking for for a weapon that would cover a long historic period .

 

[Audubon]

There is currently a thread on another (authenticity based) forum that has hashed over a Lorenz rifled musket reproduction for weeks. It has prompted the manufacturer to begin making changes to the product. [url] http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6683[/url]
You may need to join to read the entire thread and to view attachments. It’s an interesting look at the modern mass production of traditional arms and the lack of authentic details offered in order to produce a lower cost inventory.

 

[Rebel]

I know you are fairly new here but i Think it is still against the rules to post links to other Forums here. I may be wrong though.

 

[Audubon]

Thanks Rebel. I see this; "Do not post links to other Muzzleloading Forums." in the FAQ's. I let the moderators make the call.

GB

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

A gun from the 1700-1730 period would be a viable piece for everything up to the Revolutionary War, especially if it looked like it had some age to it. That's a lot of time and a lot of war and skirmishes. And it would make a fine hunting companion. For militia use, you might want to stay with the bigger bores--say 12 to 10 gauge. I've got a 10 bore coming with just such use in mind.

 

[Rebel]

It may be ok in this case, but i just wanted to make you aware of it. Take care.

 

[Audubon]

Gentlemen,

I’m not arguing the type - I’m arguing the quality.

Doglock components have been excavated locally; their use was as typical here during the early provincial period as any other place.

Respectfully,

Garrison B.

 

[Okwaho]

Gentlemen,

I’m not arguing the type - I’m arguing the quality.

Doglock components have been excavated locally; their use was as typical here during the early provincial period as any other place.

Respectfully,

Garrison B.

The following two messages were written by Ben Coogle,a very knowlegeable gunsmith specializing in early English guns from the late 17th and 18th century,and myself on the subject of the ubiquitous "doglock" a term which come to denote "ANY"gun with a dog catch regardless of the type of ignition system. The Dog Catch is basically an English innovation and is almost always found on snaphaunces converted to Flintlock or the English Lock.It has been found on true flintlocks as late as the first quarter of the 18th century and is rarely found on Continental European guns.Basically there is no Doglock ignition system but rather Snaphaunces or Snaplocks converted to Flintlock.
Tom Patton.

Re: Dog Locks
Author: Ben Coogle (---.228.40.162.ip.alltel.net)
Date: 11-17-06 03:16

There is some confusion as to the use of the term "Doglock". I am assuming you mean the true flintlock with a half cock notch that retains the "Ketch" safety. The earlier "English Lock" that uses a lateral acting sear will wear and become unsafe thus the "ketch" was added. This was not a problem with the very similar "Snap Haunce" as the separate steel could be swung up out of the way of the cock.

The true flintlock with a ketch would be more safe than one without, all things considered, the ketch being a redundant safety, like the grip safety on a modern .45 Govt. Model.

Ben




Reply To This Message


Re: Dog Locks
Author: Okwaho (---.tys.bellsouth.net)
Date: 11-17-06 08:06

Ben is correct here and I have voiced the same opinion before on this board. But a review seems to be in order here. The true flintlock was invented in France sometime in the second or third decade of the 17th century with researchers divided as to the inventer and date.The earlier snaphaunce lock with a horizontal sear,no half cock notch, and separate frizzen and pan cover continued to be used although many began to be converted to flintlock retaining the horizontal sear, adding the combined pan cover and frizzen. The half cock notch began to be added but conservative gunsmiths also began to add the dog catch or back catch as suggested by Jan Puype "Proceedings of the 1984 Trade Gun Conference,Part I"PP.7-8.Virtually all the early so called "Dog Locks" are in reality snaphaunces converted to flintlock, but retaining the horizontal sear and with the inclusion of a half cock notch.The pan cover and frizzen were combined but the plate configuration of the earlier snaphaunces was retained. Since the true flintlock had been in use in France since the 1620's and 30's these changes involving the snaphaunce conversions occurred largely in England. There were changes being made elsewhere on the continent but I will stick to France and England where the "English lock" {discussed below} was evolving from the snaphaunce.

In about 1650 the English responded to the French true flintlock with the "English lock"This lock was in essence virtually identical to the true flintlock but in the early examples retaining the horizontal sear and utilizing the back catch in lieu of or in addition to a half cock notch. The earliest versions {as mentioned above} retained the trapezoidal shape of the snaphaunce but soon began to be made with a more conventional shape but with the retention of the horizontal sear and a back catch with no half cock notch.A fine example of this early lock dated 1679 signed Henry Crips was purchased by the Jamestown-Yorktown Educational Fund, Jamestown Va. Another very early English lock retaining some of the elements of the snaphaunce lock is illustrated by Jim Gooding in "Trade Guns Of The Hudson's Bay Company 1670-1870" P.8.

The next development in English lock is a lock illustrated by Gooding on P.39 which shows the final evolution of English locks with a flat faced three screw lock which was a surface find at Fort Albany dating prior to 1686 when the fort was destroyed by the French. It has a gooseneck cock with no back catch and the cock has volutes on the front and back.

The final step in the evolution of the English lock is the Samuel Oakes pattern adopted by the HBC in about 1681 which was a three screw round faced lock with a gooseneck cock in the style of French guns.It is this basic pattern which is found on Northwest Guns and other trade guns throughout the 18th century and on into the 19th century.

The use of the "dog catch" historically began with the conversion of the snaphaunce to flintlock but retaining a horizontal sear to provide an additional safety to compensate for the lack of a half cock notch.It continued to be used by some gunsniths even after the change to a vertical sear and a half cock notch..I had the opportunity several years ago to examine a period restocked English fowler made by Thomas Green in the early 18th {or possibly earlier}[url] century.in[/url] the Peabody Museum of Salem,Mass.It had a typical flat faced three screw lock with a gooseneck cock and a back catch.The gun is discussed and illustrated in "American Military Shoulder Arms" Vol. I , Colonial Shoulder Arms PP.63-64. It has become the practice by arms collectors and writers to refer to any weapon with a back catch{dog catch} as a "Doglock"Taken to its logical extreme an original percussion arm equipped with a back catch would be classified as a "Doglock"The back catch or dog catch is a safety feature not a separate ignition system as illustrated by the Thomas Green gun above.

I hope I haven't muddied the waters too much but this is an issue which ,while needed, probably won't be resolved. Errors once found in print numerous times begin to assume the mantra of gospel.Break out the nails and arrows and have it. As always I welcome responsible conflicting opinions, and to paraphrase Joe Kindig Jr.I really don't care whether you agree or disagree with me. Just do the research to prove one of us correct. After all isn't that what it's all about?
Tom Patton

 

[Audubon]

Thank you Mr. Patton. This has been added to my List of Important Things Learned since joining this board. I will revise out artifact data tonight, as a matter of fact the program is running now.

Garrison B

 

[Carteret Kid]

I believe I need TWO muskets for the history I want to show . First a good quality long land Bess as a good repesenative of the most common type over most of the the period and second an ersatz weapon , something scrounged up in the emergency of the time . I am thinking about a cheap fowler or barn gun , and old war trophy or a ships musket smuggled ashore or a trade musket . A bess would have been the first choice to fight with. But for someone who was short of cash or at the back of the firelock queue he would have taken something less serviceable .