Middlesex village trading co.

[eat moose meat]

I was browsing the MVTC site they have a New england fowler now with a 51 inch barrel and a dog lock. For 595.00

 

[CrackStock]

http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/MNEF.shtml

 

[Okwaho]

That's a good looking gun and I have wondered when someone would come out with a good early flintlock musket/fowler with a dog catch.I have some pictures of a nice old English/New England fowler Ca. 1720-40 with a three screw flintlock and dog catch which is probably slightly earlier than this gun.See also Rifle Shoppe Catalogue PP 20-25 for similar examples of early flintlocks with dog catches.The parts that Cookson used were possibly off a Queen Anne flintlock musket or fowler as shown in the Rifle Shoppe Catalogue above.I also wonder if it's possible to get this gun "in the white" so you could put on a correct early finish.I saw a trendous William III musket recently in untouched as found condition and it still had its old blackened finish.
Tom Patton

 

[Rebel]

Would a .69 cal be about a .16 ga or what?

 

[musketman]

Would a .69 cal be about a .16 ga or what?

Yes...

 

[Rebel]

Thanks MM. So, what's the deal with the Dog lock? Does the safety go on automatically when you put it on full cock? How are they compared to a standard flintlock as far as reliabilty and lock speed? Any info would be appreciated as i am considering the purchase of one of these in the future now that they are available. Thanks.

 

[Okwaho]

first of all there is no such creature as a "dog lock" there are locks either snaphaunces{early to mid 17th century in England} converted to flint; Early "English locks"{Ca.1670}with a horizontal sear;later "English locks" {with a vertical sear Ca,1680; and finally English locks with the vertical sear of the French true flintlocks which from the beginning{Ca.1630's}were made with a vertical sear,a half cock notch on the tumbler and without a dog catch.Dog catches came into being on English guns which were either flintlocks converted from snaphaunces or "English locks" with a horizontal sear in which case the dog catch operated as a safety, and I have seen English guns with dog catches as late as the mid 18th century.It came into being on guns with a horizontal sear and no half cock notch on the tumbler.It was popular in England and to some degree in Sweden but is almost never seen on French guns or guns influenced by the French makers.Unfortunately it has become the practice to call any gun with a dog catch, a "dog lock" therefore a flintlock gun made in the 1750's might be labeled a "dog lock" and taken to extremes you could conceivably have a percussion gun with a dog catch and I suppose it could be termed a "dog lock"
I haven't seen the internals of this lock but would presume it has flintlock parts including a bridle and half cock notch on the tumbler and a vertical sear.The dog catch is simply an extra safety and must be put into place manually and should swing free when the tricker is pulled and the cock falls striking the frizzen.Many old guns and lock plates are found with the notch on the cock and an empty hole to the rear and downward of the cock.I saw a 1730-40 English/New England fowler/trade gun in a major New England museum a few years ago with a three screw flintlock and a dog catch still attached. I couldn't remove the lock but would guess that it was a standard flintlock of that period.Sorry to ramble on so long but I wanted to fully answer your question.
As I said above this looks like a pretty nice gun although personallyI would prefer to have it in the white and put on my own finish
Tom Patton :m2c:

 

[Rebel]

Tom, thanks for the info, it is appreciated. I think if i bought one i would be stripping the stain off the stock and removing a lot of excess woood and then restaining it. It would be nice to get a picture of the inside of the lock to see if it has the half cock notch and a bridle. Maybe i will e-mail Middlesex and see if they can send a pic of the inside of one. Thanks again. Take care.

 

[BLAHMAN]

first of all there is no such creature as a "dog lock"
Tom Patton :m2c:

I got news for ya: there is too such a creature as a "dog lcok".....it's the lock Mrs. Blahman uses on me when I'm in the "doghouse"! :haha: :haha: :hmm:

 

[Okwaho]

And just who do you suppose was the blithering idiot who defined women such as your obviously by far better half as the "weaker sex"?
Tom Patton :what: :crackup:

 

[Okwaho]

I agree with you but I doubt it has anything other than the regular flintlock internals. The Rifle Shoppe has several kits with similar locks with a view of the internal lock parts.The ones shown seem to hsve a half cock notch but no bridle.Your comment on the wood surprised me. I thought the same thing but didn't mention it. Most builders leave on far too much wood and nowhere is this more obvious than on French trade level guns and other early guns such as this. I too would strip it and then scrape it rather than use sandpaper. I've never scraped one since I'm not a builder but that was done to my 1680's French fusil and the appearance is awesome.There's an interesting thread over on the trekkers board about Tulle stock finishes and it probably applies here.What would you use to strip the stock? I have a fowler built about 12 years ago and the metal has aged well. I wonder about lacquer remover?What do you think.
Tom Patton

 

[Rebel]

Tom, i use Homer Formbys furniture refinisher to remove the stain from stocks. It works really good. I would take wood down on both sides of the barrel channel and taper it into the barrel like they should be. Would also remove some around the lock and wrist. Never tried scraping one, have always used sandpaper. Wonder how the locks ignition time would be? It looks like an interesting gun. Now that i have taken a Tom with my double barrel .12 ga caplock, i am thinking of selling it and using the money to buy a smoothbore flinter, or trading it towards a flintlock smoothbore. This looks like it might be one to consider. Need to put a little more challenge into things. ::

 

[Okwaho]

Thanks Rebel,You mentioned the real trouble spots on wood removal and especially the forestock and the area under the lock and sideplate.You might look at the R E Davis French fusil fin kit.I compared it with an old fusil fin and it looks really good. I still want a better lock but with some drastic cosmetic tweaking it will pass.If done right scraping can be awesome.That was done to my 1680's French fusil along with such weirdness as dragging it up a gravel driveway on one side and deliberately inflicted dings and dents.I wanted it to look as if I had carried it for about 40 years {I'm 71}and he succeeded beyond my wildness dreams. The lock was a real problem so I used a reworked 63 Charleville with a new hand forged plate and a Ca. 1684 English cock.It's one helluva gun.I think you could do much the same with that dog catch fowler and it would look great when you finished. I asked them if it was possible to get one in the white but haven't heard back.
Tom

 

[LFord]

I am on the waiting list for a Long Land from Middlesex and pretty much plan on doing the same thing to it when it comes in. I have some good pics of original Long Lands and with a bit of work should be able to get the wood on the repro to where I want it, and I will follow up with a good walnut stain. I need to do some serious research on original finishes on English muskets, but I enjoy doing that and redoing the gun will be a nice little project for me next winter. I plan on using it as is this year to get a feel for where I knock and bang it so that I can distress the wood a bit in those areas.
It's not a perfect copy but for 600 bucks including the bayonet and sling it does fit into my budget for a re-enactor gun and is much better for early period RevWar than a Short Land.

Fermentation and civilization are inseperable.
John Ciardi

 

[Rebel]

I have a friend that i sold a Blue Ridge flinter to. He did pretty much the same thing to it, dragged it, beat it some, took the browning of the barrel and refinished it, took the case hardening off the lock and left it in the white. When he told me about it i thougt he was a bit nuts, but after seeing it, it looks pretty good.

 

[Musketeer]

WOW! :shocking: :shocking: :shocking:I've been outta the loop for a while (regariding ML's, been spending too much time with swords recently :shake. There's a whole slew of new stuff over at MVTC! Woohoo! :: :thumbsup:

P.S. That ship's carbine would make a sweet little brush gun. :thumbsup:

 

[kmeyer]

Has anyone purchased a rifle from MVTC? I am thinking of buying this "New England Fowler" for my first flintlock. Is their customer service good? On thier site, they talk about junk guns coming out of India. They add that they are very peticular and only sell quality guns. It's kinda weird to be thinking about buying one and not have any idea who makes it.

 

[Rebel]

I got an e-mail from them and they said if you want one of the Fowlers, you need to get your name on a waiting list. I guess they are real popular. I have heard good things about their guns. They are made in India, same as Loyalist Arms and The Discriminating General.

 

[Musketeer]

Has anyone purchased a rifle from MVTC? I am thinking of buying this "New England Fowler" for my first flintlock. Is their customer service good? On thier site, they talk about junk guns coming out of India. They add that they are very peticular and only sell quality guns. It's kinda weird to be thinking about buying one and not have any idea who makes it.

Do a search for MVTC. You'll find a bunch of posts (most of them probably by me : about some of their products. In a nutshell: their customer service is great, but you have to be patient, as they are avid reenactors and sometimes take a while to respond to emails. Their guns are rather roughly-finished, but are completely functional and tough. Pete and Wendy (the proprietors) are super nice folks, who stand behind their products. :thumbsup:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

On the only original flintlock with a dog catch that I've been able to actually function test, the dog took the place of the non-present half cock notch. When ready to fire, you pulled the cock back to firing position or full-cock, at which point the dog fell away automatically. To safe the weapon, you would have to carefully lower the cock while re-engaging the dog. A bit awkward, but once engaged the safety is quite positive. I would not want to have to release it by trigger pressure alone-on this particular firelock it wasn't possible in any case.