Military Heritage India-made Fusil de Chasse

[sturmkatze]

The parts are CNC cut to the plate, I’ll remember the next you give me a call for help Marshall…. Take a hike

Whoops. I didn’t mean you. Sorry. You’re one of the few people I think know what’s going on. My bad for reading this forum in the morning after just waking up. Again, sorry. I’ll delete that post.

 

[Sam squanch]

All this makes the old miquelet locks look pretty good! You don’t need that much precision to get a functional miquelet.

 

[Commodore Swab]

If you notice the location of the sparks they are well forward of the pan. There are lots of them sure but in the wrong location. If the person working on this lock understood that they could have corrected the problem and made a much more reliable piece.

Now when a lock is tuned correctly the goal is for there not only to be a surplus of sparks but for them to land in and bounce in the pan. Sometimes this only needs a flint adjustment. Sometimes a bit more. There is a difference between geometry and quality pendersoli did a good job copying the harpers ferry, so good they copied the poor geometry from the original into their reproduction. The sparks in the picture above is a clear example of poor geometry in action. Here is an example of a tuned India lock with corrected good geometry. In this case the cock angle was changed slightly, springs filed, and frizzen hardened with cherry red. With assembly/dissembly/reassembly about an hour of labor.

You can see an abundance of sparks landing directly in the pan and dancing about. I use this as an example of what can be done on the India import incorporating the SMALLEST flint and frizzen and typically delivering the least amount of sparks.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

This is one of the greatest urinating matches ever!

 

[FlinterNick]

This is one of the greatest urinating matches ever!

Not for me, at least four of these posters on here have called me personally for help with their locks and authenticity issues, one of the bums never paid and i still have his gun.

 

[Commodore Swab]

This is one of the greatest urinating matches ever!

There are know it all's like yourself and ignorant self proclaimed experts like Nick who generally aren't worth responding to. While it may seem my comments are directed at those that despise India guns that incorrect. There is another group that doesn't post and reads, those that have interest in the guns as there is nothing else available or within their budget. The little guy so to say, I offer a counter and real life for their benefit.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Here's what needs to be done to the Indian gun industry. Send someone over there with original guns that they are making and use them for the actual patterns, or at least TRS copies. Get some decent wood somewhere. Make some work benches for these guys to work on so they don't have to sit in the dirt anymore. Measure the original barrel every couple inches and make the barrels exactly the same. Make the locks from actual pattern pieces and have some sort of quality control. These guys should be able to reproduce 18th century quality levels. Show them how to sharpen a chisel. Make sure the stockers use patterns from original guns, Not bad pictures of the guns.
From what I have observed, the guys making these things either don't know or don't care what they are doing, probably a combination of both.
There is incredible potential there, they just need a foreman that knows how to make guns to run the outfit.

 

[FlinterNick]

Here's what needs to be done to the Indian gun industry. Send someone over there with original guns that they are making and use them for the actual patterns, or at least TRS copies. Get some decent wood somewhere. Make some work benches for these guys to work on so they don't have to sit in the dirt anymore. Measure the original barrel every couple inches and make the barrels exactly the same. Make the locks from actual pattern pieces and have some sort of quality control. These guys should be able to reproduce 18th century quality levels. Show them how to sharpen a chisel. Make sure the stockers use patterns from original guns, Not bad pictures of the guns.
From what I have observed, the guys making these things either don't know or don't care what they are doing, probably a combination of both.
There is incredible potential there, they just need a foreman that knows how to make guns to run the outfit.

And thats why people come to you and me Mike, at least once a month one of these tries to find its way to me because the owner is so dissatisfied with the purchase. A little more quality control goes a long way, and i agree starting with the wood.

 

[Commodore Swab]

Someone could make a difference for sure but it's irrelevant. Here's what's going to happen although it will take time although not as much as you would think. . .
A new builder will step up.

I have it on good account since corona India has raised their prices twice and just went up another 15%. Shipping has more than tripled while availability has decreased. Long story short dealers won't be able to make money at current prices and a 20-40% increase won't sell. Things are on borrowed time. A void is being created that will be filled. Maybe better quality from a local source? I doubt that. 20 years from now we might be talking about the better quality of the "old" India guns. Of course that is scary

 

[Snooterpup]

We see antique Indian guns that bring high prices.
But let us compare two barrels. Both smooth.
Side by side they stand the same proof load. But we don’t shoot proof loads, we shoot optimal loads. Far below proof loads.
Smoothies have a wide variety accuracy. But in general fifty yards they shoot small enough to serve most needs. They will both put meat in the freezer.
They will shoot close enough to hit most targets on a woods walk
So these two barrels both shoot the same.
One is Indian, one is perdisoli, or Rice.
How do you say one is better? What is the criteria?

I don’t know what tge wood is on my dog lock. However I know my Centermark is on maple. Real TFC were on French walnut.
Is one better than the other?
My lock was worked on by loyalist arms. It’s smooth,solid and sparks. How is a Chambers or Davis better?
What’s the geometry that’s diffent between a bess lock on an Indian and a bess lock on a perdersoli
Is perdersoli trade gun a closer repro than a loyalist NWG? How do?

That all my be true but break a mainspring, frizzen spring, bridle, sear or frizzen and with a Siler, Davis, L & R, Chambers, Kibler or Pedersoli you can get a replacement that works pretty darn quick.

 

[FlinterNick]

This is one of the greatest urinating matches ever!

I think this Doglock might be coming over to you when I’m done

 

[cebusey]

Now my dog lock tapers, I’ve seen videos of tge gun used as a pattern for it and can tell you where the difference are. However it’s as close as perdisoli is to an original.
What is the criteria you use to say the geometry and quality is not as good?
A lock works quickly and smoothly and sparks. It doesn’t eat flints. The working surfaces are smooth. What makes tge one better?
I’m an put in mind of a quote from the eighteenth century about the kings musket
I would have to look up the author
But he said the kings musket if not illy boared AS MANY OF THEM ARE can hit the figure of a man at eighty yards.
He went on to say that beyond a hundred yards you may as well shoot at the moon.
Service life was about twenty years.
I truly doubt that the kings musket could stand beside a repo today, on average. Honesty I read these same things about Italian and Japanese guns in the 1970s and 80s
I recall when CVA made the Mountain Rifle how Blackpowder report lambasted it, now it’s popular when one can find one.
I too had an unfounded prejudice against curry poppers, till I examined them and researched them

There are junk Indian firearms and junk Pedersolis. Lumping all Indian made arms in the junk class and all Pedersolis in the good class is not correct. The arms I have had from Loyalist have been good quality and the Flint pistol I bought from them over 20 years ago has and still works perfectly and sparks very well. The Pattern 1853 musket barrel I bought from them to replace an original Enfield "Mutiny" Not ima Musket matched the contours of the stock perfectly. The snail is a little larger than the original but the breeching matches the original and does not have excess threading extending past the breech plug. The sights are wrong as they are rifle sights rather than the tombstone post rear sight. I would have preferred to have had the original barrel relined But Mr. Hoyt said it was too far gone and I yield to his expertise. Loyalist came through at a very reasonable price vs the 1k plus to have a US gunsmith make a new barrel. An interesting footnote - I have an IMA Pattern 1853 lock that is quite functional though not the quality of an original Enfield manufactured lock - BUT the mainspring, tumbler and sear are interchangeable with the original - so their pattern must have been pretty close. The Bridle is different as it did not have the pin that would go into the lockplate as the original Enfield locks I have do. Kibler quality Indian arms are not, but neither are Pedersolis. This argument will never end - just like the MAC vs PC issues

 

[FlinterNick]

It depends in part on what you’re buying and comparing to pedersoli.
Pedersoli makes some fine guns, some are not so great.

Their long rifles i can’t stand, also never liked their 1803 pistol.

However their French military arms are very well made, as are many of their military rifles, sharps etc. You simply can’t compare that quality to Indian made arms.

 

[FlinterNick]

That all my be true but break a mainspring, frizzen spring, bridle, sear or frizzen and with a Siler, Davis, L & R, Chambers, Kibler or Pedersoli you can get a replacement that works pretty darn quick.

Exactly

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I only let one if those things in my shop. The guy had bought a lot of guns from me so I told him I'd give it a go. It was a dog lock pistol. I believe the parts were inleted with a screw driver and a crush fit. There was enough wood on it to make two guns. The lock even showed a few weak sparks every now and then. What a waste of time and money.

 

[Commodore Swab]

I only let one if those things in my shop. The guy had bought a lot of guns from me so I told him I'd give it a go. It was a dog lock pistol. I believe the parts were inleted with a screw driver and a crush fit. There was enough wood on it to make two guns. The lock even showed a few weak sparks every now and then. What a waste of time and money.

So correct me if needed. Someone buys a lot of guns from you. I know they aren't Indian as you don't deal with them which means they are something else. Either new or original I guess, if original then disregard anything else as I see you buying and selling originals and irrelevant to the current discussion.

If they are modern then I assume they are different as most don't buy a lot of the same model. I also assume you have more than a single customer which would imply volume passing thru your doors. I don't believe you are supplying a single customer with many custom pieces as I have found once people start getting built pieces (dropping big money) they typically don't go back to being India, especially not extreme low quality India.

Anyways your comment piqued my curiosity and thought I would give you a chance to clear up some of my thoughts.

 

[trackpin]

Have any of you guys seen the pictures of how these indian guns are made? Guys sitting on a dirt floor filing out parts holding them with their feet. Barrels are made of hydraulic tubing sourced from who knows where.
AND, the guns aren't stocked in teak as everyone says. Google teak and find out about it. this stock wood definitely isn't teak.

For sure not teak. Teak would be a poor choice for that even if they were stocked in it.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

So correct me if needed. Someone buys a lot of guns from you. I know they aren't Indian as you don't deal with them which means they are something else. Either new or original I guess, if original then disregard anything else as I see you buying and selling originals and irrelevant to the current discussion.

If they are modern then I assume they are different as most don't buy a lot of the same model. I also assume you have more than a single customer which would imply volume passing thru your doors. I don't believe you are supplying a single customer with many custom pieces as I have found once people start getting built pieces (dropping big money) they typically don't go back to being India, especially not extreme low quality India.

Anyways your comment piqued my curiosity and thought I would give you a chance to clear up some of my thoughts.

I have made nearly 400 custom flintlock guns. I have repeat customers that own upwards to 8 of my guns. I'm not sure why that is relevant.

 

[FlinterNick]

I only let one if those things in my shop. The guy had bought a lot of guns from me so I told him I'd give it a go. It was a dog lock pistol. I believe the parts were inleted with a screw driver and a crush fit. There was enough wood on it to make two guns. The lock even showed a few weak sparks every now and then. What a waste of time and money.

Sounds like the one i had in my shop.

The charleville i did in the pictures above, the one the commodore fella gave me a USUCK write up on didn’t spark at all, and the frizzen was hard as hell too !

To get that lock to spark i had to totally rebuild it, wasn’t worth the argon gas i used welding up holes and making new parts.

Ironically i took the frizzen to a metalurgist friend of mine and he found all kinds of alloys in it mixed with stainless steel. The only way I could get it to spark was with a long baths in bone charcoal at 1600 and then a case hardened finish.

Never again.

 

[PathfinderNC]

So correct me if needed. Someone buys a lot of guns from you. I know they aren't Indian as you don't deal with them which means they are something else. Either new or original I guess, if original then disregard anything else as I see you buying and selling originals and irrelevant to the current discussion.

If they are modern then I assume they are different as most don't buy a lot of the same model. I also assume you have more than a single customer which would imply volume passing thru your doors. I don't believe you are supplying a single customer with many custom pieces as I have found once people start getting built pieces (dropping big money) they typically don't go back to being India, especially not extreme low quality India.

Anyways your comment piqued my curiosity and thought I would give you a chance to clear up some of my thoughts.

I suggest you take a gander at Mike’s website and/or Google Mike Brooks Flintlocks.
The man knows his sheet.