mold of lead for lead

[George]

Here's an interesting take on bullet molds.

"January 5, 1748
The Pennsylvania Gazette

From the GENERAL MAGAZINE. A New Method of making BULLET MOULDS. THE Badness of the Bullet Moulds brought into America for common Sale, and the Difficulty of meeting with one of them, bad as they are, that will fit one Gun, will render the following Invention, for making (easily) true and exact Bullet Moulds, agreeable to all Lovers of good Shooting. First provide yourself with two Pieces of Lead about an Inch and a Half, or two Inches Square, and half as thick, and smooth their Faces, so that when joined they may make near a Cube; then get some Marbles (such as Boys play with) from the smallest to the Size that fits your Gun, oyl or grease the Marbles and Lead well; and with the Assistance of a Smith Vyce, with two flat Pieces of Iron in the Chaps of it, press
the two Pieces of Lead with the smallest Marble between, till the Marble be quite sank in the Lead; then put in the next greater, always remembering to keep the Lead and Marbles well oyld, thus successively, till you have brought it to the Size you want: And, to prevent the Bullets having Edges, smooth the Faces of the Mould, and press in the same Marbles several Times, by which Means you may make Moulds of wonderful Exactness. Then cut a Gate and fit the Corner with Pins, to keep the Pieces in a proper Position for casting. When you use it, smoke it well, and take Care the melted Lead be not so hot as to burn Paper."

Items like this give a glimpse of the thinking of shooters of the 18th century. This one is looking for consistent size and a close fit, just as we do today. It also seems reasonable to me to assume these bullets are being made for a smoothbore/fowler, given the preponderance of that type gun in Pennsylvania in 1748.

We think in terms of hundredths of an inch when choosing ball size, but they were deciding between cat's eyes and aggies.

The balls being made are called bullets because at that time all bullets were balls.

I presume the bit about burning paper is a warning to keep the molten lead from melting the mold.

Spence

 

[Bill Hall]

Oh, I gotta try this!!!! Bill

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

I presume the bit about burning paper is a warning to keep the molten lead from melting the mold.

Spence

Uh, yeah.... maybe?

Now think about this: If the mould "blocks" were made of lead, and if molten lead is poured into the lead blocks, the blocks WILL melt. Maybe not the first time but it will, at the least, deform the blocks on the initial pour. And of course, if the lead poured in is kept at a low temperature, the cast balls will not fill out completely and will be subject to being filled with voids. But even at a "low" temperature, they will melt the blocks - lead is lead.

Next, consider the marbles of the day - on the average they were made of clay and rarely exactly round and almost never of an exact size - their sizes varied quite a bit. Clay marbles will crush when squeezed between the lead blocks. True, there may well have some glass marbles for the children of the well to do families but even glass marbles of the period were hand made and are rarely perfectly round - almost never as a matter of fact. Fairly close but not perfect. And again - sizes varied. But maybe that would help to find the size just right for the gun.

The above article from the Pennsylvania Gazette was very likely written by a "Gentleman of Leisure", they were the usual contributors to newspapers of the day, especially when it comes to self help articles like this. He would have been an upper class type with not too much brain or at very least, no experience in the manual arts. He also had a great deal of time on his hands. While his idea may have worked in the abstract, I doubt seriously that he actually tried it or, if he did, that it was successful. Maybe after publishing the article he was called on it and had his "man" do a few attempts but, in the parlance of the upper class at the time "the poor fool" (his man) was "too stupid to make the experiment work" and it would have been beneath him to soil his hands in the attempt, he had more important and cerebral things to do, don't ya know....

Snowdragon Bill, let us know how it works for you. Remember to use period available items and pure lead that the fellow in 1748 would have had available to him.

(Please, no one take offense at my post, I actually would like to see the theory tested. You never know.....)

 

[paulvallandigham]

I don't understand how this would be possible. The melting temperature of pure lead is 621+ Degrees, F., while the flashpoint of paper(wood) is 451 Degrees F.

How can you cast Lead, then, at a temperature that won't burn paper?

And, How could you possibly cast lead balls out of a lead block mold? Surely, some of the cavity in the mold blocks would melt, and deform? Perhaps if you carbon up the mold blocks before each cast, the mold might not melt, or deform, but I have never had any reason to try that.

It would be much more sensible to make molds from Clay, which could be dried, and baked to harden them, so that they might give some several casts before they wore out. NO?

I am sure that this is why Soapstone was also used for making bullet molds back then. Its a soft stone, easily shaped with the crudest of "cherries", or round spade bit, to form a round ball mold.

Early iron molds were cut with cherries when they were red hot. Even today, you can heat up the toughest Stainless steels, or other steels, to red-yellow-white color and drill thru them with a common high carbon steel drill bit, like cutting soft wood.

I found this out years ago when I ruined a couple of bits trying to drill pin holes in the tangs of some patch knife blanks I bought from a dealer at Friendship. These were laminated, SS blades, and I could not touch them, cold, with an ordinary drill bit. I bought better bits, and even one with a carbide tip, the next day.

However, I ended up remembering how a wheelwright punched holes in 1/4" thick steel "tires" for a wagon wheel by heating the tire up to red hot, and using a punch hardie in his anvil, and a heavy hammer to Whack the tire. One blow on each side punched out a clean 1/4" diameter chunk of steel.

So, I heated the tangs of those blades up red hot, and drilled the holes with my common, cheapest drill bits, and they cut big curls of steel as they sailed through the tangs. Easiest work I have ever done.

I have since talked to blacksmiths who have apprenticed with older blacksmiths. They confirm that much of the drilling, and cutting work was, and is still done with the metal red hot.

I just don't see how you could use lead mold blocks, much less shaped the way this author described the process, to cast lead balls. There are too many things working against you.

I have also seen some hand-made molds- possibly from the early 19th century, but they could also be from the 18th century, of iron, that were obviously cut with "cherries". My brother, Peter, found one at Friendship, this past year, in .363" caliber, which he bought. He has a .36 cal. rifle with a .365" bore. Balls cast from this old mold shoot very well, using .012" pillow ticking and Young Country 101 lube. The handles on these old molds are very short, and you need to put wood handles over the steel "handles", and wear gloves to protect yourself from burning. Make handles out of an old Broom stick- just drill holes into the broom handles wide enough to fit the square shaped steel handles on the mold, and shove or tap the broom handles onto the others. They don't have to be pretty- painted, or finished.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Early iron molds were cut with cherries when they were red hot.

Paul, a good post and I agree with most everything you say except the above. Bullet (roundball or whatever) moulds were made of relatively soft pure iron iron and were cut when the blank was at normal, room temperature by casehardened cherries, they did not have to be heated to red heat to do this.

 

[buttonbuck]

The author of the article must have been the last Alchemist.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I have seen collections of "cherries" in museums, and none appeared to be case-hardened. All were rusted. However, there is No reason Not to believe that these were case-hardened when new. Thank you for that comment. A case hardened cherry could certainly cut the very soft iron barrels-alloyed with lead-- that you see produced in the 18th century, and even later in rural areas where hammer forged barrels were continued to be made. The Same metal would have been used for molds.

I got my information in the early 1970s talking to an old blacksmith, in his 70s, who told me he got his information, from his grandfather, who was active as a blacksmith before the Civil War, and lived until he was a small boy, helping his Father in his blacksmith shop. His father told him that his great-grandfather was also a black smith, and gunsmith- as so many had to be working in rural areas. Mostly they did a lot of repairs on farm equipment, shod horses, and did repairs on household goods. They freshened out barrels and made New cherries to make the molds for the new bore diameter. I didn't ask him how far back his Great Grandfather lived, but he would have to be in the first half of the 19th century. I made a practice, then, and now, of just listening to these old guys when they decided to talk about their families and histories.

All this kind of thing pretty much pre-dates 1840, when our Industrial Age made barrels of steel, and they were cheaper to buy new, than to have old barrels "freshened". Of course, in the very rural areas, where transportation was still a problem, some of these skills persisted right up to WWI(1917-'18).

 

[matt denison]

01/31/11 09:48 PM - Post#952280


Here's an interesting take on bullet molds.

"January 5, 1748
The Pennsylvania Gazette

From the GENERAL MAGAZINE. A New Method of making BULLET MOULDS. THE Badness of the Bullet Moulds brought into America for common Sale, and the Difficulty of meeting with one of them, bad as they are, that will fit one Gun, will render the following Invention, for making (easily) true and exact Bullet Moulds, agreeable to all Lovers of good Shooting. First provide yourself with two Pieces of Lead about an Inch and a Half, or two Inches Square, and half as thick, and smooth their Faces, so that when joined they may make near a Cube; then get some Marbles (such as Boys play with) from the smallest to the Size that fits your Gun, oyl or grease the Marbles and Lead well; and with the Assistance of a Smith Vyce, with two flat Pieces of Iron in the Chaps of it, press
the two Pieces of Lead with the smallest Marble between, till the Marble be quite sank in the Lead; then put in the next greater, always remembering to keep the Lead and Marbles well oyld, thus successively, till you have brought it to the Size you want: And, to prevent the Bullets having Edges, smooth the Faces of the Mould, and press in the same Marbles several Times, by which Means you may make Moulds of wonderful Exactness. Then cut a Gate and fit the Corner with Pins, to keep the Pieces in a proper Position for casting. When you use it, smoke it well, and take Care the melted Lead be not so hot as to burn Paper."

I've read it twice. It sounds perfectly plausable to me. Open your minds, fella's, think it through, don't jump to preconcieved conclusions. This is something I want to try.



Thanks Spence. You come up with very interesting and provocitive posts. I'll look forward to more from you.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

I've read it twice. It sounds perfectly plausable to me. Open your minds, fella's, think it through, don't jump to preconcieved conclusions. This is something I want to try.



Thanks Spence. You come up with very interesting and provocitive posts. I'll look forward to more from you.

No closed mind or preconceived conclusions here. Please reread my post above and think. I have been working with casting lead and various alloys of lead for over 50 years starting with casting lead soldiers at 6 and then moving on to the Linotype machine at our family newspaper at 11 where temperature of the metal and the matrices, is critical. Shortly after that I started casting bullets - roundballs and Minié balls using pure lead as well as alloys, known and, in some cases, unknown - wheel weights of many kinds, old window weights, etc. I do know how lead acts both melted and as a cold metal. I am also aware of the various lead alloys. That is why I said "... if molten lead is poured into the lead blocks, the blocks WILL melt. Maybe not the first time but it will, at the least, deform the blocks on the initial pour" and so on.

:applause: laffindog, I think you should try it. And do be sure to post a video on You Tube with a link for us or at least the results here. Also, do remember to use period marbles as I mentioned above. I stick by everything I said - it was an interesting idea at least in theory but if it would have worked, we should see a lot of that idea being used from the mid-18th Century until today but lead mold blocks simply will not work, at least not for long, especially if you want balls of a consistent weight. It is an interesting project that may allow some few usable bullets with a lot of time expended.... :thumbsup:

 

[token tory]

Why not just make the mold out of baked clay?

cut 2 halves of soft clay, impress ball (marble) as described separate & bake. You could make enough that you could just pour as many balls as you'd need for a time & then leave them to cool, wouldn't even need handles that way. :idunno:

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

That has a much greater chance of success than blocks made of lead.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

You know, it just occurred to me, try Linotype metal as the ball with the lead blocks. The melting temperature of lead is a little over 600 degrees. Linotype metal, a composition of lead, antimony and tin, melts at about 450 degrees. With Linotype, the mold made of lead might work.... For a while. Just a thought.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Do you have a current source for Linotype? Just curious, as few printing operations still use the stuff. It used to be you could pick this up for next to nothing from newspaper print shops, but that source is gone. I do know that Linotype was pretty hard stuff. I don't think I have every read what its alloy is, but it makes wheelweights look like putty, IMHO.

 

[R.M.]

Here's a chart.
It can be found here http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm#commonalloys


Common Bullet Alloys,

Composition and Hardness
Alloy Tin% Antimony% Lead% BHN Arsenic
(Trace)
Foundry Type 15 23 62 ? No
Monotype 9 19 72 28 No
Stereotype 6 14 80 23 No
Linotype 4 12 84 22 No
Lyman # 2 5 5 90 15 No
Electrotype 3 2.5 94.5 12 No
1 to 10 tin/lead 9 --- 91 11.5 No
1 to 20 tin/lead 5 --- 95 10 No
1 to 30 tin/lead 3 --- 97 8 No
1 to 40 tin/lead 2.5 --- 97.5 6-7 No
Hard Ball 2 6 92 16 No
Clip-on .5 2 97.5 11 Yes
wheel weight 12
Stick-on * ** 99.5 6 No
wheel weight
# 8 Magnum --- 2-3% 97-98 *** Yes
Plumbers Lead --- --- ****100 No

 

[hunts4deer]

Wood pulp paper burns at 451 F. What about 18th century paper, which is usually pure linen fibers?

Also, I doubt the lead mould would easily melt unless you started casting in rapid succession. The blocks would act as a heat sink, carrying the heat away from the ball cavity. I think this has a high probability of working.

How were 18th century marbles made? Were they fired clay? Slowly working up from small balls to larger ones might not stress the marble enough to shatter it.

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you think this method can work, try it an see. Let us all know. I am not adverse to learning something new. :shocked2: :surrender: :hmm: :thumbsup:

 

[matt denison]

I made a lead mold last night and it worked. Yes it worked just fine.

My criteria was that it couldn't take any longer than 20 minutes and that the only thing I was attempting to prove was that a ball could be cast in lead mold blocks without melting down or being destroyed. I did not use any measuring devise except a caliper to measure the diameter of the marble. Everything else was eye balled.

I used two pure lead ingots from a Lyman mold for expediency. I stuck them in the vice on the milling machine and trued up the wider of the two faces then draw filed them for nice flat mating surfaces. I had to drive into our tiny town to the pharmacy to find marbles. $1.99 for 50 marbles. I did not have a selection of progressively larger marbles. 5/8" (.625) diam. would have to do. I oiled the marble and blocks with Ballistol. It wasn't easy to get it all lined up in a vice and squished with only two hands so I used the arbor press for the initial squish. Near the end of the squishing process I ran into trouble caused by the fact (I think) that I was starting with a large marble. Since you are not removing material but displacing it the mold blocks were getting mushed out of shape pretty badly. Plan B. I needed a smaller sphere to squish. I settled on using the knob from a top jaw screw. I filled the screw driver slot with the TIG welder, cut off the knob and shaped it the best I could on a verticle belt sander into a ball appro. 3/8" diameter, suitable for a .38 caliber. I lubed everything up and began squishing again with much better result. My 6" Craftsman bench vice can really lay a squish on when reefed with 165 lbs. of human preassure. While the blocks were still squished onto the ball I drilled two 1/8" holes through both blocks and inserted some 1/8" pin stock as indexing pins. Then I turned the blocks on their side and (after a practice run) drilled a sprue hole w/ a #16 drill bit in the seam between the blocks into the ball cavity. Then a quick countersink and I was ready to take the blocks apart to see what lay within. It looked like it would work so I smoked them up REAL GOOD, pinned them together, held with a pair of pliars that were handy. I heated the scrap lead from the milling operation in a stainless steel spoon that I keep near my torch and finally made the first pour. No damage to the blocks at all. But the surfaces weren't mating close enough and most of the lead simply poured through the mold. Back to the vice for more squishing. By the third pour I got a ball with some flash around it. The ball and sprue popped out without incident. There was absolutely NO DAMAGE to the lead mold blocks. I called it good and proceeded on to Happy Hour.

Now, I did not make a nice round ball or one that is even remotely what I would want to rely on in one of my guns. With a little more time and care I have no doubt that a minimally decent ball could be cast from a mold made like this but that wasn't what I set out to do. It worked and I was happy with that.

One more thing: I stuck the corner of a piece of scrap paper into the molten lead. It turned brown-scorchy-blackish but didn't ignite. a

 

[robertdale]

boy oh boy, this laffin dog guy is sharp. and he kept the post on point.
thanks for the time and effort. :thumbsup:

 

[Norinco]

With a very thin layer of oils left over from sooting the inside of the mold, it sounds plausible for me. The oils vaporizing would form a protective layer preventing much heat transfer. If you heated up a frying pan really hot and dropped some water on it, the droplets would dance around, but not vaporize as fast as you may think. That is the same reason you can dip a damp finger into sufficiently hot lead and not get hurt. The water vapor forms a protective layer.

 

[Kootenai]

Laffindog is sharp. He is the owner, machinist, janitor of North Star West, manufacturer of period correct trade guns.