Moles

[ApprenticeBuilder]

Not sure if this is pertinant to this particular forum but it is an issue for all of those that persue this hobby.

I just recieved this today in e-mail from a member working out of state and am not sure of his sources, but I do believe the threat to be real, maybe Paul would weigh in on the legalities of this.

" I just got some disturbing news from a fairly reliable source, that the BATF is sending out undercover agents (again) to various re-inactment events like ours and Civil War etc. and setting people up with lines like "hey buddy I ran out of powder can I buy some from ya?" Well there is a felony conviction, jail time, and a $10,000 fine not to mention confiscation"

 

[Claude Mathis]

When I saw the title of your post, I was getting ready to tranfer it to the cooking forum. :haha:

My advice? Never do anything illegal with a total stranger.

 

[tg]

"My advice? Never do anything illegal with a total stranger.'

Now I can remember when that would have really put a damper on my social life :shocked2:

 

Well said Claude.
:v

 

[jtmattison]

My advice? Never do anything illegal with a total stranger.

Yup, if you're going to do something illegal, make sure you do it with a friend. :wink:

:haha:

HD

 

[Zonie]

And I thought I was going to see a link to the Gardening Forum.

As for the possibility that BATF is sending moles to events I suppose they could but why would they?

I mean, for one, it takes manpower to do this.
Also, I can just see the results of what would happen at an event if they tried.

Officer: ""Hey buddy I ran out of powder can I buy some from ya?"

victim: "Sure, I've got a couple pounds I'll let you have. $10 a pound sound fair?"

Officer: "You are under arrest for selling an explosive. You have the right to an...."

victim: "WHAT THE HELL DO YOU MEAN I'M UNDER ARREST? HEY YOU GUYS. THIS BATF GUY JUST SET ME UP! HE WANTED TO BUY SOME POWDER AND NOW HE'S ARRESTING ME..."

By this time a large crowd of upset people are gathering around the two. A guy is on his hidden phone calling the local newspaper. 5 people are taking pictures of the incident on their period cameras. 147 people are taking pictures on their non-period digital cameras...

BATF isn't known for its PR but it also isn't dumb enough to try something like this.

I do know that BATF has moles at the local gunshows and on a few occasions they have set up sellers but usually it is done to a scum bag who caters to illegals. Oh, and I did once see them arrest a guy at a show.
Seems he stole a gun off of a table and was making it out the door.
The agent told folks what was happening and everyone in the area cheered.

 

[trent/OH]

Just Monday I saw some retiree driving around and his personalized plates read ATF. I'm confident that this guy's initials are A.T.F., or it's some other set of initials that he used. But I remember thinking that if he drove that van to a gun show, it might get real interesting real fast!

 

[R. Miller]

some years back they did a similar thing over eagle feathers at (I think) friendship,or a national rendevous .Was written up in the Buckskin report........Stickwalker

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

I have never sold a can of powder, but I have at times allowed a fellow shooter to top his horn to finish or even participate in a shoot.

The ATF are an evil bunch, but they are not stupid, they would not blow an operation on one individual and never within a mob of like minded folks, but they do take notes and those things if dated are admissable.

This is just more of a heads up for the new guys, Be Careful.

 

[rice1817]

Hold on there.....My powder,bought legally. Are you telling me that I can't sell it for what I paid for it??????? How about guys that buy 25 pounds with the understanding that they will divy up the cans among several fellow shooters. For convenience, one guy puts it on his credit card or writes the check and when it comes in he delivers it the guys reimburse him. That is illegal?????? That makes him a "distributor"? I find that hard to believe...maybe a local or state regulation? If it is illegal then there are a hell of a lot of "criminals" running around in my neck of the woods.

 

[bucktales]

Sound advice indeed.
Rather than making a scene at an event or range, I'd think they would grab ya after you leave when you're all by your lonesome. :shake:

 

[kevthebassman]

Sound advice indeed.
Rather than making a scene at an event or range, I'd think they would grab ya after you leave when you're all by your lonesome. :shake:

Well, you would think that, but what with Obama knocking down the door to the White House, we're likely to see a return of Waco-esq strong arm tactics. They might arrest you right there, or be really funny about it and pick you up while your at work or walking into your church. A stunt like that wouldn't surprise me one bit.

 

[renovato]

I know for a fact they send moles to the gun shows. They offer a gun for sale at a great price. Later on another feller comes around trying to buy the gun for way more than I paid. If I sell it, I go to jail. If I keep it, I get a nice gun for less than it's worth and they get annoyed. Win/win.

 

[Maynerd62411]

Just Monday I saw some retiree driving around and his personalized plates read ATF. I'm confident that this guy's initials are A.T.F., or it's some other set of initials that he used. But I remember thinking that if he drove that van to a gun show, it might get real interesting real fast!

:rotf: I work with a guy who has "F T D " on his plates, but he doesn't deliver flowers. It's his initials. :rotf:

 

[RC]

Hold on there.....My powder,bought legally. Are you telling me that I can't sell it for what I paid for it??????? How about guys that buy 25 pounds with the understanding that they will divy up the cans among several fellow shooters. For convenience, one guy puts it on his credit card or writes the check and when it comes in he delivers it the guys reimburse him. That is illegal?????? That makes him a "distributor"? I find that hard to believe...maybe a local or state regulation? If it is illegal then there are a hell of a lot of "criminals" running around in my neck of the woods.

I had to sign a paper sayin I would not resell it..and it was for personal use only...when I buy it from pa.

 

[Zonie]

I know for a fact they send moles to the gun shows. They offer a gun for sale at a great price. Later on another feller comes around trying to buy the gun for way more than I paid. If I sell it, I go to jail. If I keep it, I get a nice gun for less than it's worth and they get annoyed. Win/win.

I'm not quite sure why you would go to jail or even be bothered by BATF.
There may be a law in your state that prohibits a private individual from selling a gun he owns to another resident but that is not the case in Arizona.

The only thing that may bring the Feds into it is if the individual you are selling the gun to is not a resident of your state, then you are breaking a Federal law.
Of course, if your State has a law against selling your own private gun to someone that is a different thing.

As I recall, this ability of a private individual to sell his/her gun to another State resident is one of the "Loop Holes" that some of the Senators and Representatives in Washington want to plug.
They want to make all transfers of modern cartridge guns subject to the "background checks" that the licensed dealers have to preform.

 

[bingo1952]

I think Paul V. should get in on this after all he is a lawyer. :thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

The ATF spells it out clearly...see item #47 at this website:

http://www.atf.gov/explarson/fedexplolaw/2007edition/q_and_a.pdf

 

[Hawkeye]

Para #47 really only applies if you are "in the busisness of selling explosives" whatever they want to define that as. I would think it would be similar to "in the busisness" of selling firearms as opposed to selling one or two from your private collection. A very slippery slope.

 

[MercerLake]

:v Roundball has posted a link to the ATF site, and if one reads the FAQ section. Blackpowder is an explosive but in quantities of 50 lbs or less is exempted as are percussion caps, quills and other items as long as they are used for "sporting" purposes. :v Of course this all subject to change as is anything that is regulated.