More questions about the India-made muskets

[kb466]

I am contemplating buying one of the 1st model Brown Besses made in India. If I like it, I may also buy one of the 1777 Charlevilles. I know this subject has been discussed ad nauseum, but I have a few questions before I buy.

I am very interested that the musket be authentic in appearance and profile, etc. One problem I had with the Pedersoli Charlevilles and Brown Besses is that they did not "look right". I owned one of the Charlevilles and felt that the breech area of the barrel was way oversized and was lacking the slim profile of an original. If so, I assume this is done to protect Pedersoli and the ignorant shooter from blowing himself up by overloading the musket. From the website photos, the India-made muskets (at least the metal) look much more correct in profile. Am I correct? I am quite proficient working in wood, so reworking, restaining and refinishing the stock does not concern me, but is there something I need to know about the stocks (or the metal, for that matter) that might make reworking them difficult or impossible?

Finally, is there any difference in quality or features between the Military Heritage, Middlesex or Loyalist Arms Muskets? Is there any reason to select one dealer over another? I am leaning toward a 1756 Brown Bess, and Middlesex seems to be the only one offering one presently.

Military Heritage says on their website that their 1756 is not presently available. Any specific comments about the Middlesex 1756 Brown Bess? Any work that any one of these dealers will offer a 1763/66 Charleville or a 1795 Springfield? Again, I did not like the looks of the Pedersoli offerings.

 

[dodgecity]

The last I knew, MVT's policy was to issue a full refund for any firearm returned un-fired or un-altered, no questions asked. I would contact them by phone or email to see if this is still their practice, and to get answers to any other questions you might have. Nothing beats being able to hold and examine the piece first hand and then make your decision as to whether to keep it or return it for a full refund.

 

[rschissler]

Military Heritage told me a few months ago that they hoped to release a 1763 Charleville by the end of the year.

 

[3 stinky dogs]

The stocks on the MVT ones sre Rose wood and Rose wood dust make's me itch but thats me.I called MVT and the return policy is still the same.I cant say anything about the quality but in this country and the trend to sue any one who passes gas I assume they would be make sure that even a moron would have to try harde to blow it up.Give them a call they are good folks and will ansure any question you have.

 

[LFord]

I have one of the 1756 muskets from MVTC and am quite happy with it. Here are a couple of links to posts I made about it at different times.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/ubbthr...true#Post119997

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/ubbthr...true#Post125968

 

[AZ-Robert]

Hey Les, in one of those posts you mention plans to refinish the stock. Have you started that project yet? If so, what stains and finish did you use? Working with that rosewood pose any special problems?

 

[Jdzara]

HI,

I'm also interested in any advice you could give concerning
refinishing an MVT Bess.
Thanks,
Jerry

 

[benvenuto]

Rosewood is on the toxic/highly irritant dusts list

http://www.mimf.com/archives/toxic.htm

Use an OH&S aproved respirator or moulded foam dustmask (not those cheap paper masks) and clean up afterwards

these may be some people to ask about staining rosewood
Stewart Macdonald instrument makers supplies and finishes

Once you've stained it, I've heard you can use tung oil as a sealer

 

[jchochole]

Gentleman,
In response to your questions on Indian-manufactured weapons. I have has Besses from MVT and Military Heritage as well as from Dale Bauer (sells on Ebay) and I generally have found that MVT has the best quality woods. Now take that with a grain of salt as batches of muskets vary in quality. But I was most pleased with theirs. The staining and finishing has been easiest on MVT weapons. Military Heritage and Dale's muskets have been gummy and the wood was un-dried and damp. The Indian woods are very wet. I recommend stripping the wood down with an ethyl-alcohol to speed the drying process, let it stand bare for a few days and then begin with alcohol stains (pricey but worth it) and rub them in with 3-4 coats. Then begin with a 1/2 and 1/2 mixture of mineral spirits and tung oil. Then follow with straight hand-rubbed tung oil. Finally finish with wax.

This has served me well for dark and matte-finish military stocks.

Hope this helps,
Jim Chochole

 

[AZ-Robert]

Welcome to the forum, Jim. Thanks for the tips!

 

[jchochole]

Thank you for welcoming me, I am brand new. I am glad to help.

Cheers,
Jim Chochole

 

Are you sure the stocks are made of rosewood? Rosewood is extremely expensive. Could you be confusing teak and rosewood? Rosewood costs about ten times what teak costs.

 

[Harddog]

Rosewood is on the toxic/highly irritant dusts list

http://www.mimf.com/archives/toxic.htm

Sawdust from walnut wood can also be a real killer. Horse breeders who use sawdust in horses' stalls know never to use walnut sawdust because it can actually kill a horse.

Harddog

 

[3 stinky dogs]

No its rose wood.Go to MVT's FAQ and you can read it there.I would like to know where you get teak as I almost have to sell one of my kids to get teak.Not that rose wood is cheep in this country either.

 

Here is a link for teak. Be prepared to pay. By a rough calculation, a long gun sized plank would cost almost as much as an entire finished gun from semi custom builders.

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/find;a;1;ID;,Teak.Wood;eclDrill;2536


I read MVT's FAQ and it did say rosewood or teak. Two local lumber suppliers sometimes carry teak but I have never seen rosewood offered and a cursory search on the net didn't turn up a rosewood lumber supplier, just furniture.

 

[benvenuto]

via google

Brazilian Rosewood (Dalbergia nigra)

Brazilian Rosewood is scarce, and hence many commercial guitar manufacturers have switched to Indian Rosewood - it is unlikely that manufacturers will switch back to using Brazilian Rosewood (Sloane 1975). Sometimes referred to as "Jacaranda", several factors have made Brazilian Rosewood the ideal wood to use in guitar manufacture. Due to its exceptional strength and density, yet thinness without sacrificing rigidity, along with a high resin content, Brazilian Rosewood has a superior resistance to decay and warp (Wheeler 1974). Its lustrous, dark-grained beauty is a prized asset in an instrument where visual appearance is an important consideration. Brazilian Rosewood ranges in colour from pale red-brown to deep chocolate. The grain is often wild, with pores that can be large or small (Sloane 1975).



Fig. 2: Brazilian Rosewood image

Source: http://bumpy.braille.uwo.ca/~charles/woods.html



Indian Rosewood (Dalbergia latifolia)

Indian Rosewood has a grain that is more uniform and its colour ranges from pale grey-brown to deep red-brown or sepia with a vaguely purple haze (Sloane 1975). Its grain is generally more open-pored than Brazilian Rosewood and its lustre is duller. Indian Rosewood is resinous, stable and generally more consistent in grain than other rosewood species. It is extremely resonant producing a deep warm projective bass response that accentuates on large bodied guitars (Peckham 1994).

As I understand it the term 'rosewood' refers to any pleasantly fragrant wood, but to be more specific, the species Dalbergia (Dal-berg-E-uh) (genus Fabaceae (Fay-ba-see-e)) and Pterocarpus (tear-o-CAR-pus) (genus leguminosae) are what botanists will tell you are rosewoods. Snapperhead's given you the more common ones:

Dalbergia nigra (Brazilian rosewood) - Listed as CITES Appendix 1 (trade in this wood is prohibited). Very fragrant like lilacs, or in my opinion does remind me of old sweet smelling cardboard/library books!

Dalbergia retusa (Cocobolo rosewood) - "phantom log" Mexico & Nicaragua, pungent smelling & oily. Smells almost like incense or oriental perfumes! I've worked some and comes up beautifully under a scraper and burnishes/buffs to a shiny natural finish.

Dalbergia cearensis (Kingwood) - supposedly reputed to be reserved for the French royal family. Mostly used as veneers on cheaper wood.

Now here's more off the top of my head:

Dalbergia melanoxylon (African blackwood) - THE wood for clarinets, flutes & other musical instruments. (because ebony has a tendency to crack)

Dalbergia frutescens (Tulipwood) - attractive light figure, reminds me of Rimu.

Dalbergia maritima (Madagascar rosewood) - Very dark rich red. Madagascar has now banned logging of this species.

Dalbergia odorifera (Huanghuali) (pronounced wong-fa-lee in Cantonese or huang-hua-lee in Mandarin) the name translates to "yellowed flowering pear wood". Native to China/Hainan island. Chinese prize this wood second to Zitan. Has a shimmering golden/amber to red figure like Cocobolo but finer and less grotesque. Used on the best Ming & Qing dynasty furniture.

Dalbergia latifolia (Indian rosewood) used on all the "rosewood" handled woodworking tools you see nowadays, e.g. Crown, Robert Sorby. Lightly fragrant, leaves your hands nicely scented.

Dalgergia sisoo (also Indian rosewood) not as nicely coloured as D. latifolia. Locals (in India) even use this as firewood as it is very fast growing.

Pterocarpus santalinus (Zitan) (pronounced G-tahn in Cantonese or Zhu-tahn in Mandarin) name translates to "purple sandalwood" & was reserved for the imperial Chinese household on account of purple being an imperial colour (same as the polar star). The most prized cabinet wood in China & Japan (where it is used for koto instrument parts). An item I have made from it smells similar to Cocobolo. Very dark purple/black. Listed as CITES II. Native to India & China.

Pterocarpus indicus (Burmese padauk). Lighter in both weight & colour to P. santalinus & would have been used by Chinese cabinetmakers for their solid rosewood furniture as well.

Pterocarpus soyauxii (Padauk). very common

Pterocarpus dalbergiodes (Andaman Padauk) note the Dalberg in the name. Native to the Andaman Islands. Similar but darker red & heavier than P. soyauxii.

There are dozens of others but they're generally not made into anything of significance

 

[3 stinky dogs]

Oly guacomolae ! heck yeah its pricy! but they are a marine suppily shop.Never buy anything from a marine shop sepecaley wood!I had forgot the mention of Teak or did not read it all my bad.Now I would like a teak stocked gun.It would match my coffie table !

 

[Story]

Anyone have a suggestion for a good finish for Rosewood, other than BLO?

I've stripped one of the Loyalist Arms Potsdam pistols and it's a pretty piece of wood. I'm not inclined to put a faux Walnut stain into this.

 

[LFord]

I just finished putting the stain on the wood last night and it is looking good so far.
I started by sanding off all of the old finish working my through 80, 150, and 220 grit sandpapers, I could have gone finer but this is a mass produced military gun and I didn't want to fine a finish on it. After I had it all sanded and wiped down to get the dust off it I did wipe downs with mineral spirits and a final wipe with denatured alcohol to make sure I got all the dust off. The first coat of stain was Minwax dark walnut that I let dry for 48 hours and then did a second light stain with Minwax special walnut(not as much red as the dark). I am letting it dry for about 5 or 6 days and then I am going to give it a real light sanding (220) and start applying the finish. I am going to be putting on 3 coats of Tried and True wood finish, this is a mix of pure linseed oil with beeswax added. The first coat is getting cut 50/50 with turpentine(not paint thinner), second coat will be 75/25 and final coat will be pure finish. As of right now the color looks pretty good, it will not pass for English Walnut or Black Walnut to anybody who really knows what they are doing but it looks much better than before I started.

 

[jchochole]

Thanks for everyone who chimed in on restoring a decent walnut-like finish to these Indian woods. I agree that it is not rosewood. I would offer to those who want a dark brown or blackish finish to a military musket this tip- buy the small bottle of "Log Cabin Barrel Brown and Degreaser." Get the stock down to bare wood (this is essential) and let it dry well. Put the Barrel Brown into an atomizer and lightly "lay" coats onto the wood. I do about 3 coats to get a dry greenish or grey finish. The acid is burning the top layer of pulp. DO not use a hot brown, only cold brown. Then oil or apply your finish as you wish. This will make a new wood seem 200 years old and dark blackish brown-then distress the wood with nicks and scratches as you desire.

Hope this helps,
Jim Chochole