Mountain Man Flintlocks

[Zonie]

Noting an interesting quote in the book Firearms of the American West 1803-1865 by Louis A Garavaglia & Charles G. Worman I thought I would post it here.

The quote is by Ramsay Crooks and was written to J.J. Henry in March 1830.

"(I) hasten to inform you that Percussion Locks will not answer at all for the Rifles, and I beg you will be most particular in selecting the Flint Locks required, the price being a secondary consideration. I think the Locks should be water-proof, and otherwise excellent, as they are intended for a part of the country far beyond the settlements where it is impossible to get them repaired." (p 42)

Ramsay Crooks, a member of J.J.Astors American Fur Co., while returning from Astoria in 1812 was one of the first White men to travel thru "South Pass".
In 1834 (4 years after the quote was made) he reorginized and ran the American Fur Co.

J.J.Henry's company was known during the 1825-1850s for building smooth bore Trade Muskets for the Indians, but I think it is interesting to note that in Crooks quote he specifically says "Rifles". Also I wonder, why would price be a secondary consideration to quality if the rifles mentioned in the quote were intended for use by the Indians as trade guns?

Speaking of a J.J. Henry rifle, a nice fullstock Flintlock made by him is shown on page 43 (c.1830s)



I tend to believe the rifles in question were intended for the Fur Trappers use in the Western Regions of America. It's too bad we don't know of any examples of these guns today.
Were they Half-stock or Fullstock? The authors of the book tend to believe that during this period they were fullstock style guns.

Did they have patchboxes, Iron or Brass furniture?

Speaking of brass furniture, in the same book on page 40-41 are some interesting comments.
Quoting from the book, "In his letter to J.J. Henry in 1825, William B. Astor had stated specifically that the American Fur Company's rifles were to have mountings of "well ornamented Brass," and brass mountings probably remained standard for another several years."

George Frederick Ruxton in his Life In The Far West writing of a backwoodsman who had come West wrote in about 1825:

"...he first of all visited the gun-store of Hawken, whose rifles are renowned in the mountains, and exchanged his own piece, which was of very small bore, for a regular mountain rifle. This was of very heavy metal, carrying about thirty-two balls to the pound, stocked to the muzzle and mounted with brass, its only ornament being a buffalo bull, looking exceedingly ferocious, which was not very artistically engraved upon the trap in the stock."

I realize some of you folks really don't care about this sort of Historical information, but some of us do.

zonie

 

That is very interesting.
I noticed when reading, Journal of a Trapper;
1834-1843
Osborne Russell, when you look at the supply manifest, there was never any mention of caps.
But there was always listed flints as part of there supplies.

 

[AeroncaTAL]

Very interesting Zonie, thanks. I've heard before that flintlocks were prefered over caps, but this is the first documentation I've seen. I've also heard that the mountain man guns probably had iron furniture over brass, this quote goes counter to that...
Scott

 

[tg]

Good stuff, there are many mentions of caps in ledgers of good going up the river in the 1830's one which I cannot recall the indiviual party had to remove their caps during the heat of the day as they were going off, this had to be uncomortable in hostile counytry, I think all we can safely say about the 1830's in the west was that it was a time of transition fronm cap to flint, by the 1840's the caps were much more common than a decade earlier.

 

[Desert Rat]

I think this has been de-bated before but in Russell's journal he talks about a hunt where somebodies "percusion tube" (I think it was tube, but may have been called something different, I don't have it in front of me but for sure percusion) broke. If I remeber correctly the reference was to what we would call a nipple.

How's that for mud! :grin:

 

Found this in Robert Cambell's 1832 account book.

pd Hawkins for Pistols

$30.00
Flint or percussion? :hmm:












Amount brought forward


$425.37 1/2



To Cash pd J Hardin at Kyles for shirt

1.12 1/2




" Drayage of Traps

$0.12




" for shoeing hammer

$0.50




" McDowlin

$2.00




pd Hawkins for Pistols

$30.00




Book .75 map .75 Thermometer 1.75 ink .125 Almanac .125
$3.50




Yellow Horse of Richards

$37.50




Sorrel Horse of Hume

$40.00
$114.25



Rowels in Spurs & awl of Creamer

$0.50




Drayage of powder

$0.25




pd for Horse Keeping to Alexander

$10.00




Half to Mrs Eckert

$1.50




pd for Horse at St Charles

$26.00
$38.25



pd for Do at Franklin

$20.00




pd for Do Bay Spotted Do

$25.00




pd for Mule to Cooper

$37.50




pd difference between 2 mares & mule

$20.00




pd American Fur Company for Indian Lodge

$5.00




pd for Goggle Cases

37 1/2c
$107.87 1/2



amt carried forward


$685.75

And another:



Amt brought forward


$500.59

April 10th
To
Cash


100.00

" "
"
Order in favor Hawkins

$30.00


" "
"
5 Spanish Saddles @ 450

22.50


" "
"
10 pack Saddles 225 & Straps 75$ 3$

30.00


" "
"
1 doz Front Hobbles

6.00


" "
"
1/2 " Side Hobbles 9$

4.50


" "
"
1 1/2 " Halters 7.50

11.25


" "
"
Newel for Branding Iron

1.50
105.75

" "
"
Insurance 500$ at 1 1/2 pr ct

7.50


" "
"
McKnight for Joe Hardin

2.65


" "
"
1 yd Blue Cloth

1.80


" "
"
2 check shirts

1.12


April 11
"
Cash

60.00


" 13
"
Order in fav Eckert

20.00


" 19
"
" " M Simpson & Son

25.00


May 5
"
Cash for Horse

30.00


" 7
"
Grocery in Lexington for Joe Hardin

1.32


" "
"
Cash

40.00
189.30



amt carried forward


$895.64

 

[Zonie]

There is a quote in Firearms of the American West 1803-1865 about Russells mentioning the burst tube.

"Osborne Russell was hunting near Yellowstone Lake in August of 1837 when his companion "shot a Grizzly Bear and bursted the percussion tube of his rifle which obliged us to return to camp to our comrades...and make another tube."
During an 1839 hunt west of Fort Snelling, H. H. Sibley formed a very definite opinion of the relative merits of the flint and percussion locks:

When I raised and levelled my piece, (the bear) was not six feet from its muzzle. Snap! snap! snap! was all I could get out of the infernal rifle, which no persuasion could induce to go off, and O! that I should live to record the fact, the bear got away safe and sound....Now, my opinion...is, that any man calling himself a sportsman who will not use a percussion, when he can procure one, in lieu of a flint-lock gun, should be ...furnished with a strait jacket at the public expense."

zonie

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I remember somewhere seeing an 1834 order for many rifles from half a dozen gunmakers. This was for what we would call "trade rifles" and quite a large number all told. They specified "good roller locks" which I'd presume to be flintlocks.
Ruxton also mentions at one point that he didn't find the mountainmen to be especially good shots and said "they all carry old fashioned flint guns which are constantly snapping and provide an excuse for a missed shot". He'd have been writing in 1843 or '44 and clearly considered the flint to be "old fashioned". But then he also mentions quite a few mis-fires with his fine Brittish cap guns.

 

[LFC]

Interesting. That last quotation is especially telling, in that it obviously is an argument in a then-still-ongoing percussion-versus-flint debate (but which was by then being won, at least in the speaker's mind, by the new technology.)

I'm sufficiently ignorant of fur-trade geography to recognize the modern whereabouts of South Pass, Astoria, and Ft. Snelling; whereabouts are we talking about here?

Thanks!

 

[roundball]

I found it interesting too...assuming my conclusions are correct, it told:

Flintlocks were still preferred, at least in 1830;

32 balls to the pound being 218grns would probably have been a 52-54cal "Mountain Rifle" he exchanged for;

I guess the term 'trap' referred to a patchbox;

Thanks for posting...

 

[boar]

-I love it,Zonie. I have a flintlock Hawken. Noway were all the MT men going to take a caplock to the Mt, and not see a merchant for maybe a year or two. Unless they had a beer can and roll of toy caps and Tap-Cap :grin: Dilly

 

[Zonie]

Interesting. That last quotation is especially telling, in that it obviously is an argument in a then-still-ongoing percussion-versus-flint debate (but which was by then being won, at least in the speaker's mind, by the new technology.)

I'm sufficiently ignorant of fur-trade geography to recognize the modern whereabouts of South Pass, Astoria, and Ft. Snelling; whereabouts are we talking about here?

Thanks!

Astoria was established in 1810 by John Jacob Astor's Pacific Fur Company in what is now Clatsop County, Oregon. It was the first U.S. community on the Pacific Coast and is located near the mouth of the Columbia River.
For a number of reasons, the original establishment failed.

South Pass was the second pass used to cross the Rocky Mountains by the white man. It is located in Southwestern Wyoming and, while most folks think of a pass as being rugged, South Pass looks like a wide gently rolling area between a few modest mountains. Its elevation is about 7500 feet.
South pass was used by tens of thousands of people going to Oregon, Washington, Utah and California.

Ft. Snelling in the 1820s was an outpost located out in the middle of no-where.
That "no-where" is now called St Paul, Minnesota.

zonie

 

"George Frederick Ruxton in his Life In The Far West writing of a backwoodsman who had come West wrote in about 1825:"


In 1825 little Freddy Ruxton was only 4 years old. What mountain man was he writing about when he was 4 years old.

In 1825 there were no percussion guns or rifles. Just flintlocks. I guess I am not clear on what you are trying to say here.

 

[Zonie]

Cooner54: Right you are. Ruxtons was born on July 24, 1821 and his book was published in 1847. As I understand it, much of it was based on stories he heard while traveling thru the West in the 1840's.
I should have said "...writing of a backwoodsman who had come West in about 1825" rather than "...writing of a backwoodsman who had come West wrote in about 1825..."

Actually, the Ruxton reference was intended to deal with rifles with brass furniture on them, not with the type of ignition.
IMO, even if we assume Ruxtons story was based on hearsay, Mr Astons letter dealing with brass mounted rifles could be considered significant?

I must disagree with your statement "...In 1825 there were no percussion guns or rifles..."

Many authors agree that by 1816 the copper percussion cap was created and by 1820 some guns which used it were marketed although most of them were shotguns.
zonie

 

This period was the transition between flintlocks and percussion locks, which explains alot of the apparent conflicting info and opinions. As in alot of things that change, not everyone accepts the changes, alot of folks cling to 'the old way' while others enthusiastically accept the new. The flintlock was used in the Ozarks up until at least the Civil War, when alot of guns were converted to percussion, just in time to go obsolete as cartridge guns came out. Back east, percussion rifles were available by 1825 or so. Meshach Browning, in his excellent book on hunting, borrowed his son's new percussion rifle for a hunt [he had been hunting with a flint rifle for years] in one part of his story, and the rough chronology in the book allows one to place that event ~1825. He hunted in what is now West Virginia and SW PA. The caps were likely hard to get "out west" and the mountain men surely carried flintlock rifles in the early through middle period of the Rockies fur trade. By 1840 caplocks were commonplace and shipments of needed caps, etc more common--this was the heyday of the famed Hawken plains rifles--in caplock. Many of the famed Mountain Men traded for caplocks by the 1840s--see Hanson's book on plains rifles for photos of many of them...

 

[50cal.cliff]

Were they Half-stock or Fullstock? The authors of the book tend to believe that during this period they were fullstock style guns.

Did they have patchboxes, Iron or Brass furniture?

Speaking of brass furniture, in the same book on page 40-41 are some interesting comments.
Quoting from the book, "In his letter to J.J. Henry in 1825, William B. Astor had stated specifically that the American Fur Company's rifles were to have mountings of "well ornamented Brass," and brass mountings probably remained standard for another several years."



zonie

Now I realize I am only quoting part of your article here Zonie, I did read it all.
The part I am quoting brings up an interesting question. If I am not mistaken, I remember reading that a Hawken half stock was a production used by some of the Moutain Men!
Referenceing the material you are qouting would seem to suggest that maybe some of today's reproduction Hawkens in half stock and all the brass triming might not be as far off PC as some like to suggest. :hmm:

 

I don't think that is true. The half stock classic Hawken rifles were dominantly iron mounted percussion rifles and came late in the MM period. The modern TC Hawken looks more like 1850s rifles produced in California and some other late plains rifles. The early fullstock brass mounted rifles looked more like the eastern longrifle ["kentucky rifle"] made in PA and elsewhere....

 

I must disagree with your statement "...In 1825 there were no percussion guns or rifles..."

Many authors agree that by 1816 the copper percussion cap was created and by 1820 some guns which used it were marketed although most of them were shotguns.
zonie

But were they used prevalently in 1820, even in the east? I don't think so. There were several stages between the percussion lock and the old flintlock that were experimental and not to be trusted by woodsmen or frontier folk in general. i.e. pillocks,etc.

As far as brass furniture on trade rifles? Heck yes! Rifles and guns had been furnished with brass hardware all through the 18th and 19th centuries. Very few makers used iron mounts. Hawken's being two of them. Some makers offered either. The rifle being described of Hawken manufacture with brass furniture and a buffalo on the buttrap was more than likely a early fullstock rifle that looked like the rifles the Hawkens were making in the east before they came to St. Louis, and most likely still built a few in St' Louis. I don't think they switched styles of hardware and stock archetecture over night when they hit St' Louis. The existing rifles by the Hawken brothers is evident of the fact that the style change was slow. At least as long as Jake was alive. Jake may have been the traditionalist of the two brothers. I doubt seriously that it was a "classic Hawken rifle" with a halfstock and a flintlock done in brass. See Hanson pp.9, Figure 2A and 2B.

As to the Henry rifle in brass in the 1830's? I would think he (Ruxton) was talking about the rifles pictured on ppg.64 and 66 of Hanson of Henry make.

 

Ruxton also mentions at one point that he didn't find the mountainmen to be especially good shots and said "they all carry old fashioned flint guns which are constantly snapping and provide an excuse for a missed shot".

Actually this was Nathaniel Wyeth in 1834 not F Ruxton in 1846.

As to existing trade rifles - see the Museum of the Fur Trade sketchbook on trade Rifles as well as the Mtn Man sketchbooks and the Hawken Rifle Its Place in History all picture examples (be careful of using the latter books sales/purchase records as they are only a partial list, not the whole story) . The Garavaglia and Worman book also shows examples - the Henry iron mounted rifle shown in there as well as several other source is NOT a Henry - it is a NC made rifle using a Henry barrel - Henry sold not only finished guns, but also barrels and parts.
I've got some pics that I've posted before - if interested just do a search

FWIW - Don Stith is working up a kit for the Henry Lancaster/American model (the same thing NOT a different model as intimated by Hanson) - if interested let Don know and if it's made by Don Stith it will be well documented and as "correct" as possible.

While the existing J & S Hawken Halfstock Mtn Rifles are most usually found iron mounted there are at least a few Mtn Rifles mounted in brass and other fur trade rifle makers of the day generally used brass. Still iron mounted guns had become so popular in the west by 1830, that the Henry company was making them on order for AFC and others.

But were they used prevalently in 1820, even in the east? I don't think so.

Don - maybe not by 1820 but by 1827...
In 1827 The "American Shooter's Manual" noted that eastern sportsmen were almost exclusively using the percussion cap. BTW - Hey old **** if you read this - are you back to school yet? If not give me a call soonly.....

As to cap locks use in the west, some references......
1) General Ashley 1829, "I have used the percussion locks locks but little, but believe them admirably well constructed for general use, but more particularly for the prairies, where the severe winds and rains prevail at certain season of the year."

2) In Sept 1831 and again in December 1833, the government ordered for the western Indian trade, some 2150 guns from Deringer. One shipment included," 217 percussion and 93 flintlock rifles complete, at $12.50 each: 217,000 percussion caps at 80 cents per thousand; [and] 310 woolen covers at 37 1/2 cts......"

3) In 1834 shortly after founding Fort Hall - N. Wyeth and his party - "percussioned three rifles, our powder being so badly damaged as to render flintlocks useless."
Here's Nat Wyeth's journals/correspondence -[url] http://roxen.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/nwythint.html[/url] (note: Interestingly the Wyeth folks carried the equipment/supplies to percuss their guns, yet those supplies do not show up on the existing Wyeth trade lists....

4) August 1837, Osborne Russell's hunting companion, "shot a Grizzly Bear and bursted the percussion tube of his rifle which obliged us to return to our comrades...and make another tube." Journal of a Trapper -[url] http://roxen.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/ruslintr.html[/url]

5) Famed Mountain Man, Jed Smith was killed by the Comanches along the Santa Fe Trail in 1831 - the pistols taken from him were converted from flint to percussion.

6) H. H. Sibley after a hunting mishap, 1839, "........Now my opinion...is that, any man calling himself a sportsman who will not use a percussion, when he can procure one, in lieu of a flint-lock gun, should be furnished with a strait jacket at the public expense."

7) The US Armies Hall breechloaders were first fitted with percussion locks in 1831 (surprisingly early considering that the military was notoriously slow about modernizing). Still most of the world's armies, including the US, had by and large had at least begun switching to caplock firearms by 1840-42 (the so-called Mississippi Rifle was the first such widely used US long arm) .

8) It didn't take long for the percussion system to move west, early in 1832, John Martin of Little Rock, Ark. advertised, " Guns and Pistols with common locks, fitted with percussion locks, at the shortest notice." - In other words he was advertising that he could convert ones "common lock", i.e. flintlock, to percussion at short notice, indicating that there was a plentiful supply of not only parts, but caps as well.

9) American Fur Company brigade leader Lucien Fontenelle bought his Hawken in 1832 and it was definitely a percussion since he also bought caps at the same time.

10) Mtn Man Kit Carson was an early (circa 1839) advocate of Colt's percussion revolvers and longarms, as were the early Texas Rangers.

In general by the later 1830's/40's the use of the cap lock was generally well on it's way to making the flintlock all but obsolete except amongst the Indians and some of the old die hard frontiersman. Still Western Indian trade guns at least were produced with flintlocks well into the late 1860's, but this may not so much have been due to the lack of caps, but rather there method of hunting buffalo on horseback, where the flintlock was easier to load and self-prime.
Availability of caps: Hansen's book "The Hawken Rifle it's Place in History" has several references to caps being available in St Louis at least by 1830, just 3 short years from the time they were considered de riguer in the "East". By 1834-35 several vendors were advertising quantities of caps in the 100,000's and within another couple of years in the millions. As to getting them out west, well why it may seem on the face of things that such "luxuries" were hard to get many rendezvous trade lists don't necessarily uphold this view. Not only that, but by the mid-30's several forts, Laramie, Union (and it's satellites), Hall, Bent's, etc. as well as the Santa Fe trade made things more easily available. BTW - please note - Hansen's more recent book on the Hawken is a good read and has much important info, but as he even states it IS NOT the final word on the subject as most of the info was garnered from only a limited set of resource documents. For instance the Hawken rifles listed on the rendezvous lists posted above are not included, nor is the invoice dated 1829 and signed by Gen'l Ashly, for one rifle listed.
When researching anything please remember there is a dictum amongst professional archaeologists, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." In many cases it just lack of documentation that may just be tucked away moldering in some ones house or museum basement.

 

[50cal.cliff]

Here is some interisting reading on the Hawkens brothers and their business doings.[url] http://home.att.net/~mman/JSHawken.htm[/url]
Also here is another article that I based some of the info for my statement on.[url] http://home.att.net/~mman/PlainsRifle.htm[/url]
Although I belive the long rifle was probably what origionally was carried West.
A need for a shorter and lighter rifle was really drove the Hawken halfstock rifle to the forefront. Back then this rifle would have been called "The Pains Rifle"! I think the name Hawken stuck, much like a brand name.
The article states that there are examples of the percussion halfstock as early 1820's,but that it didn't become the standard till around the mid 1840's!
This article from the National Firearms Museum may be where the patchbox idea came from.
Quote from article:
"Notable individuals who owned a Hawken include Jim Bridger, Kit Carson, Joe Meek, Mariano Modena and President Theodore Roosevelt. During booming California Gold Rush days, Samuel Hawken sold his rifles for $22.00 to $25.00. An unusual feature of this rifle's stock is the German silver patchbox, likely inletted from another rifle. Most Hawken rifles were plainly finished, leaving owners to improvise decoration."
This is the entire piece if you want to read it. [url] http://www.nationalfirearmsmuseum.org/tour/gallery/hunting.asp[/url]
The piece Zonie quoted speaks of mountings in "well ornamented brass". Along with the other info it tends to make me believe that today's reproduction of the Hawken half stock may not be as far off as most think.
Zonie I hope you don't feel I have pirated your thread here, as that was not my intention. I was merely stating a conclusion on my part, based on past articles and your info.
Here is a page you may want to add to your favorites if this is an intriguing subject to you.[url] http://home.earthlink.net/~swier/FurTrade.html[/url]