Mountain Man shotgun

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crockett

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Does anyone have any information on what some of the double, side by side shotguns looked like that may have been carried by mountain men. These guns were used for night duty in guarding the camp, etc.
 
Since the Mountain man era began with the conclusion of the Lewis & Clark Expedition, in 1807, and continued through the 49 GOld Rush migration, any shotgun used by Mountain men would most likely be a flintlock. Percussion guns were only becoming popular in the late 1840s, after the end of the Mexican War, where some percussion rifles saw action, and were found to be reliable. Beaver Hats went out of style in the 1930s, so the prime motive for mountain men going to the mountains ended well before percussion guns became popular.

I have read a lot of histories on the Mountain men, and I don't recall the mention of ANY double barreled shotguns being used. That does not mean there were none- just that they were not common enough to have been noted in the diaries, and histories of that era. Flintdoubles were expensive guns to build, anywhere, and usually would be sold to wealthy men. Normally, this was not the class of men who became " mountain men", ie., trappers and hunters who went west to the Rocky Mountains, to trap beaver and make their fortunes in the fur trade.

If you can find a copy, Winfred Blevin's " Give Your Heart to the Hawks: A Tribute to the Mountain Men", is an excellent source of first hand information on the Mountain men and explorers, based largely on diaries, letters, interviews, maps, etc.
 
The Hawkens were making doubles, but they seem to have looked like any other percussion double that was available. Which point in the era are you concerned with? Earlier any smooth bores would most likely have been muskets or trade fusils--maybe a few old fowlers. The earliest percussion doubles look a lot like late flint doubles and then they develop into the form the kept until the breechloaders came in. You can usually find photos of doubles on the various on-line auction sites. If you could find a modern Italian percussion double, you could probably modify it to look like a reasonable facsimile of an early 19th century gun. Or buy a kit and build it into a decent replica of one.
 
If you have any original source information of Mountain Men using double barrel shotguns for guard duty I'd like to see it too. Supposedly Kit Carson owned and used a double but I haven't found a source to confirm it. Kit died in '61 so it may have been in his later years.

Matt
 
That Kit Carson was a 14 gauge Hellinhaus of St. Louis, dated about 1840 according to James Hansen. Hansen says mountain men liked shotguns for night duty. There are a few quotes, I think Ferris, where he shoots one Indian and then points the other barrel of his gun at a second Indian who then runs. In any event; sounds like a double shotgun but it could have been a double rifle with a swivel breech. Maximilian in 1832 made a tour to the upper Missouri, or Ft. McKenzie, and is shown with a double percussion side by side but that may have been unique. In any event, I was wondering if anyone had any more information.
 
I've seen photos of the Carson gun and believe it is on display somewhere, I seem to recall it as being a 15 gauge. Of course we can't know just how and when it was used, he may have done a bit of bird hunting while commandant of Ft. Garland or while in retirement in Taos. I too have heard they used double shotguns for night guard and a double with buckshot would be great for that use but I guess it is just one more thing we will never know.
 
I'm with ol' Laffindog on this one. The sources I've seen to the use of double smoothbores in the West all date to the mid-40's, Mexican war era, and later with the exception of some more wealthy European travelers using rifled doubles. Don't get me wrong here. They were available somewhere, but they were rare in the West before the mid-40's. After that the English and Belgians started making cheaper versions for the export trade. Several American makers apparently started importing them and marking them with their own names. The Hellinghaus double that Kit owned was one of his last guns. It was apparently given to a family friend about the time Kit died, so it likely dates to the 1850's. I'd bet a close inspection on it would reveal Birmingham or Belgian proofmarks on the barrels.

The Hawken double shotgun in Baird's book was not marked so and Baird attributed to the Hawken shop apparently because of the scroll guard on it. Several European makers from different countries used those on their doubles. I recall talking with Don Stith about that double once and he was doubtful about it being of the Hawken shop. It is possible that, like other shops, they sold a few imported versions or repaired some doubles, but its doubtful they ever strayed far from building their bread and butter rifles.

Sean
 
I believe it was James Ohio Pattie who mentioned the use of shotguns in his book. I no longer have the book, so can't say for sure. You might look it up. I think the book may even be published online. The info would be in the earlier part of the book, when on the trail to Taos.
 
Check out "My Sixty Years on the Plains" by William Thomas Hamilton. Forest and Stream Publishing 1905.
Trapping and Trading and Indian fighting.

A large band of American trappers from Wyoming were camped on a hot spring. This spring is where North Salt Lake City, Utah now stands.

"Bill" Hamilton tells of a very deadly battle that was fought at the spring. He mentions the use of rifles and maybe Patterson pistols not sure? He did mention that the indians were armed with flint locks and arrows. It seems from the old writing that the trappers had Perc. cap weapons.

Sept. 1837 We let them get with in 50 yds. before delivering a shot, and at the discharge of the rifles many fell. Three of our men were armed with double-barrlled shotguns loaded with a half-ounce ball and 5 buck shot. deadly at close quarters.
{This is from Chapter XI page 110 and 111 of the afore mentioned book.}

In reading many of the original log books of the Trappers, Double-barrelled shotguns were often mentioned. Type of ignition you have to just go by the time of the writing. They did not often mention flint or cap.

The mention of flint or cap did come later. They would mention some one as having an old flint lock. This was a reference to some one not having a modern cap lock. :v
 
While percussion " pepperbox " revolvers were being made in the 1820s, Colt's Paterson revolver did not go into production until late 1936, too late to be of help to the defenders of the Alamo in March, 1836. There is some evidence that one of the defenders had a pepperbox " rifle", or revolving rifle, which almost certainly would have been a percussion ignition gun. Whether there were percussion DB shotguns as early as this is for someone else to say. The fact that the writings do not describe them as the NEW, percussion system, tends to suggest that any shotgun would have been flint.

I believe that the Kit Carson gun would have been something he acquired rather late in life, and long after his long adventures and explorations.If anyone can date that gun to before 1846, I would be very intersted in knowing that information.

The industrial revolution hit the firearms industry in a huge wave in the early 1840s, as people learned from equipment first invented by Eli Whitney, and the Whitney patents ran out so that others could use his ideas to produce their own machinery. Percussion guns began to replace flintlocks in the mountains only when the quality of the caps improved, and large supplies of the caps, in waterproof tins, could be obtained cheaply by the Mountain Men at their annual Rendezvous.

For Mountain men, shotguns were " second " weapons, carried instead of even more expensive pistols. It is more likely that you would find a single barrel fowler, or musket, or shotgun with the barrel shortened, being used as a " second " gun for close range defense work, than a more expensive Double Barreled Shotgun.

Obviously, men who lived by their wits, and their guns apreciated the extra barrel on a DB shotgun, and, if they could acquire a double barrel gun, they would sell or trade that single barrel gun to someone else. This is basic combat tactics.

No one wanted to let hostile Indians get close enough for a shotgun to be effective on them, because at those close ranges, the Indians could easily kill white men with their bows and arrows. Rifles were carried to keep the Indians out of range with their weapons, while the whites could easily kill their enemies at longer ranges.

A shotgun of any kind would be useful for guard duty, simply because of the restriction that night made on the sentry to see very far away. A shotgun could be used as a point and shoot firearm, rather than carefully aimed, as you must with a rifle. If the sentry was not killed with an arrow, knife, or tomahawk, he might have time to raise that shotgun and kill or wound an attacker, alerting the camp to the attack, and saving both his life and the lives of his companions.
 
Terry,

You're right. I didn't remember Bill Hamilton because all my books are still in boxes, but he wrote that book after his '60 years on the plains' and that happened when he was a young pup. Could be he was mixed up a bit or not, but either way I wouldn't call them all that common until around the early 40's.

Sean
 
I am sure you mean Pattersons were produced in 1836 not 1936? Hamiltons writings and Wootens writings often mention handguns. They both write about a common practice of a trapper having 2 pistols a large knife an ax and a long arm.

You may be correct on the pepper box pistol not sure. We find some very early copy about the Colt Patterson in the hands of trappers. I don't think we can rule out the use of Dbl.Guns as primary weapons by some trappers. No I don't own one my self.

We know smooth guns were very much in use during this time. And these fellows were making top dollars selling fur.It is more likely than thinking that they packed and extra 100 lbs. of gear for night guards. :shake:

The one important rule of the trappers, was no one fires a weapon while traps are being set. The exception was in ones own defense. This would allow other trappers who were near to respond to a possible fire fight, not the death of a rabbit. So for a man alone setting traps in the heavy willow thickets of the Rocky Mtns. a smooth gun may have been very handy.

I think many are victims of the Hollywood Mtn. Man who would only carry a Hawken Rifle. We all know what a hoax that is. It has only been in recent years that we have come to understand the place of the Southern Mtn. Rifle and smooth guns in the fur trade. Why not consider investigating the Dbl-Gun and not close our minds to this fire arm. :confused:
 
The other problem with the shotgun issue is if a fusil, being smoothbore, may be viewed as such. The mere mention of a shotgun doesn't mean it was a double barrel shotgun. Along the same lines, a gun with two barrels could be a swivel breech type rifle, not a double barrel shotgun.
In looking through some of my information:
1. Ferris, p147(my book)- had a two barrel gun loaded with balls.
2. Maximillian- double barrel, side by side percussion shotgun, but he wasn't a mountain man.
3. Pattie page 9, he had a rifle for guard duty, the other man a musket, probably a fusil but obviously not a double barrel shotgun.
4. Meek, page 171, shot one Indian and then raised gun to fire again- must have been a swivel or double barrel shotgun.
5. Beckwourth, p 77, the other two men fired with shotguns loaded with buckshot- could have been fusils or old B was making it up.
Josiah Gregg, page 30, a double barrel shotgun loaded with buckshot was better than a rifle for night guard duty.
6. Lewis Garrard (1846),page 21, borrowed a double barrel shotgun to shoot ducks.
7. Ruxton (1846-7), page 62, double barrel gun.
8. Larpentuer, page 236, double barrel gun in 1847.
9. Townsend, p 69, 20 gauge shotgun ball.
so... lots of this could be post 1840 or actually refer to fusils. In any event, there has been some thought double barrel shotguns were used by mountain men. May not. If anyone has any info, please share.
 
Sean

Don't think he was off on dates. You see this is now
SLC, Utah. The Mormans were there by 1847 and had full control of the valley. There were other folks in the area by 1840 and and only mention poor digger NDNs by that time.

Wooten mentions Dbl. guns as well in his writings, Gourade mentions them. I think the fact that they were not called shot guns until later may cloud this issue. The other post by Crockette indicates this.
Happy Monsoon season.
 
You can add Alexander Henry the Younger to that list. While not in the mountains initially, he makes numerous mentions of his double barreled gun while at Red River. He later was at the Ft. Edmonton/Rocky Mountain House region, and then out at Ft. George/Astoria, where he died in 1814. But....he was a full wintering partner of the NWCo., so his choice of arms may well not be typical of the average Joe.

On a similar note, in the 1850s, Upper Missouri fur trader Henry Boller wrote home asking for a custom made percussion double shotgun. He specified for it to be bored for the half ounce trade ball [24 guage/.58 cal.]; walnut stocked--oiled, not varnished; rifle buttplate in brass; and a large patchbox also brass; and complete with front and rear sights.

He got the gun and declared it the ideal hunting gun, either afoot or ahorse, for the Upper Missouri country.

Rod
 
I was re-reading Sean's post and the thought hit me about the Maximilian firearm. It has side by side barrels so I'm assuming it was a shotgun but the British guns used on African game looked similar and I believe they were rifled, so... actually do we really know for certain the Maximilian gun was a shotgun? Does he refer to it in any of his writings?

My interest really wasn't whether there were ANY shotguns in the mountains pre-1840. I was under the assumption, and it is sort of looking like maybe a wrong assumption, that shotguns were fairly common, carried in the caravans to use for night guard duty. I was wondering what these shotguns looked like but now I am wondering if there really were that many shotguns.
 
Dave et al.

The points I was trying to make were:
1) Sure they were available during the period. Look hard enough and you'll certainly find some records of just about anything. But just because several European visitors and the occasional trader packed claret to the mountains it still doesn't make that a common rendezvous beverage, if you get my drift.
2) Until the 1840s doubles were rather expensive, so you tended to find them in the hands of more well-healed folk while NW guns were everywhere during the period.
3) Sometime in the early 1840's the big exporters from Belgium and Birmingham kicked into gear on manufacturing double barreled shotguns and made it an every man's gun.

So if you're the type to draw a strict line in the timeline of drifting sands, just have a good story for carrying one. I never intend to make the argument that everything one carries has to be common, but I read the question as 'Were double barreled shotguns common in the western fur trade?' instead of 'Were they present?'

Sean
 
1)FWIW - one of the earliest actual cites I have is Fremont bought a double gun (the term "gun" was often used as a term to indicate a smoothbore during that era) from the Hawken Bros in 1838 - but he wasn't a mtn man...
2)The Hellinghaus shotgun owned by Carson is dated by the Museum of the Fur Trade as circa 1840...

Sean said:
Dave et al.
The points I was trying to make were:
2) Until the 1840s doubles were rather expensive, so you tended to find them in the hands of more well-healed folk while NW guns were everywhere during the period. Sean

With respect, maybe maybe not - The book the Hawken Rifle, It's Place in History by Hansen, has a listing of adverts from the St Louis newspaper starting in 1831, double guns/shotguns (the latter term is used in several adds pre-1840), are quite well represented, in both percussion and flint - most were advertised as being English, but Hansen made one note (IIRC 1838), that indicated possible Belgian guns.

Caps and their availability in the west is really another issue, but read those adverts and you will see that by the mid-1830's, millions of caps were being advertised for sale in St. Louis, just one of many western supply centers of the era. The wide spread use of caps in the USA can be well documented by the late 1830's/early 1840's (and even earlier, late 1820's, in the more settle areas) not the late 40's.....
 
I think there is general agreement that percussion guns became more prevalent by the second half of the 1830s. The original post asked about BD shotguns during the Mountain man era, which began much earlier, and was tied to the trade in Beaver pelts for the Fur Hat industry. Beaver hats were popular in both N. America, and in Europe until about 1830, when silk hats began to make inroads into the sales. By 1840, Silk hats had driven prices down on Beaver pelts so much that it was no longer profitable for the fur companies to send wagons out of St. Louis to rendezvous sites so that they could buy the pelts, and re-supply the trappers. Some sources indicate that the Mountain man era lasted from 1807 to 1840, some much shorter, a 15 year period from 1825 to 1840. Others talk about " mountain men " generally from 1820 to 1860. However, its clear that by the late 1840s, much of the plains had been settled, and the extermination of the buffalo was underway, as wagon trains forced routes from Missouri to California and Oregon.

Silk hats came into fashion in Europe in 1825, but became fashionable the world over by 1840, replacing the beaver hats.

So, to a real extent, the era of the Mountain Men ended just about the time that reliable percussion firearms, including DB shotguns were coming on the scene. Flintlock rifles and shotguns continued to be made after 1840-some argue with authority that the building of flintlocks has never ceased-- but industrialization allowed the manufacture of less expensive but reliable percussion guns, and they took over the majority of the market for guns. With industrialization, we also got cheaper import guns from Belgium and other European countries. America also benefitted by the immigration of many gunsmiths from Europe at this time, who decided to follow the market for their guns, and pursue their own fortunes. The explosion in development of firearms technology was possible in the 1850s, and 1860s largely because of this huge increase in our skilled work force. Where Flintlocks dominated firearms technology for 200 years, arguably percussion locks lasted only a mere 40 years at most. In the history of the development of firearms, from match locks, to wheel locks, flint, and percussion, before breechloading, self- contained cartridge guns, no system lasted a shorter amount of time than did the percussion system. The BB cap was available as early as 1846, and possibly 1842. Pinfire cartridges were available in the 1820. The first rimfire cartridge was made by Smith&Wesson in 1857, and has been continuously manufactured to this date. We know it now as the .22 short cartridge.

The end of the Mountain man era saw these men employed not as trappers, but as guides for wagon trains, scouts for the army, and, briefly, as Buffalo hunters. Compared to the period from 1807 to 1840, the life and fortunes of these later " mountain men" was quite different. Perhaps the most noble function these men served was to act as translators for the government and Indians, and as ambassadors to try to explain to Indians the terrible changes that their way of life was going to experience with the coming of European/American settlers. Jim Bridger was married to an Indian Princess, who bore him a son. His counsel was welcome by his father in law. Other trappers, like Jim Beckwourth , married and lived for years with Indian relatives, serving both as explorers, and guides, and translators for dealing with White Americans.
 
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