My Experience......

[ApprenticeBuilder]

With "Over Powder Wads" and "Patched Round Balls".

I returned home at 6:30 and went to work on the pics for this little essay here, I fired 50 rds off the bench today trying my hand at accuracy loading and I must admit that the results surprised me :shocked2:

I must admit that I was shooting with a handicap today as I am out of contacts and must shoot with my glasses, this drastically affects my sight picture as the contacts put the focal plane right on the eye as opposed to 1" away like with glasses. I also was using a target that I am not familiar with so it also added a bit of a handicap. At this point I feel that the tests were inconclusive and will need follow up testing to confirm the results.

There has been quite a bit of discussion regarding OPWs and PRBs and the accuracy improvement by using both for a given load, but there never seems to be any pictures involved to substantiate the claims made by those that praise the use of an OPW with a PRB. I made a statement in another thread about my thoughts on using OPWs and was immediately called out for it :grin:, so the following post contains the results of my range time today.

Each target contains 10 shots across an Oehler 35P chronograph, the load information is on the targets, at the end I took a picture of the printouts from the chrono so there is no mixup in information.
I made my OPWs from a 100% wool felt hat and melted grease so that it would soak into the wads, the grease mixture was Olive Oil and Beeswax 60/40. I used 1/2"(.505") and 9/16"(.565") wads made from an automotive punch for gaskets.

What I found was that the loads with the wads were consistantly larger than the loads without the wads, go figure.

Anyway heres the pics...

Wads and punch...

View from the bench thru the chronograph at the 50yd backstop at our private playground...

Without OPWs, this was shot at 2 seperate targets and then both 5 shot groups were transfered to this target...

With OPWs, same transfer tecnique...

Without OPWs all 10 shots were done on this target, no transfers...

With OPWs...

Without...

This is a five shot group 3 weeks or so ago for comparison, that was fired with the same components and me with contacts, just for reference...

The tapes...

I am going to order some of the wads that are being used by the guys that are singing the praises and see if that changes things.
Enjoy
:blah:

 

[jtmattison]

Individual results will always vary depending on many, many factors.

One rifle of mine absolutely must have OPW's to shoot tight groups. It's my T/C Hawken with 32 inch 1:70 twist GM barrel. The barrel is new with only 100 or so balls fired through it.

Without OPW's it will shoot 1-1 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards. With OPW's it shoots single hole sub 1 inch groups at 50 yards with the same powder charge, patch, and ball.

So depending on the barrel, rifling depth...etc, wads may or may not help.

BTW, I punch my own wads. The wads you made should be just as good as any store bought wads so it would probably be a waste of money for you to buy any.

HD

 

[bwhoffman]

Boy,
I really miss my daily dose of Junipers and sage brush. two of the best smells in this world!

now back to digest your info!

 

[jtmattison]

After looking over your post again I see you were shooting 60 grains of 3f.
Powder charge alone is a major factor in accuracy. I bet if you increased your powder charge you'd see a big difference in your groups.
Shoot 3 shot groups, with and without OPW's, and up your charge 5 grains at a time. Somewhere in there you should find the sweet spot.

My GM barrels sweet spot is 90 grains of Goex 2f. If I shoot 85 or 95 grains the groups open up.

Finding the sweet spot is the fun part.

HD

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

Huntin Dawg,
I appreciate your input.

I am not a fan of magnum charges, I am a fan of moderate charges and tweeking the load, the last 5 shot group in the pics was fired with the same components 3 weeks prior so the potential is there for this load. I have an eye appt. this week and will be back at it again. I also am designing a peep sight for my flinter to aid in load developement.

This post was in response to another that was making some claims as to the guaranteed benifits of OPWs with PRBs so I was curious and wanted to try them.

By the way what are you using for grease in your homemade wads ?

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I've gotten through about 50 years of muzzleloading without wads in my rifles, I've tried them from time to time but never found any advantage. I do use them for hunting loads just as a precaution against lube migration into the powder but for range work and plinking I can't see any reason for the additional expense and bother.
I do appreciate your effort in testing and posting your results. I think however I agree with your assessment that your results are inconclusive due to your visional handicap. The problem is that all of your groups are so large that random chance becomes a big factor. I think you'll have to repeat your test when you get new contacts, but do applaud your effort. :thumbsup:

 

[Bearbait2]

Each target contains 10 shots across an Oehler 35P chronograph, the load information is on the targets, at the end I took a picture of the printouts from the chrono so there is no mixup in information."

Mr. ApprenticeBuilder,
Am not familiar with your printouts regarding velocity of PRB and do not understand what they are stating.
Do they show a higher velocity average with or without the OPW?
Best Wishes

 

[paulvallandigham]

YOu seem to forget that Roundball not only used commercial Felt Wads, but he uses ONE CALIBER oversized Felt wads under his PRBs. The larger size does make a difference.

If you are going to test someone else's work, at least do them the curtesy of using the Exact same components, and procedures. Otherwise, you are talking apples and orange, and no one learns anything. I applaud you for admitting the eye sight problems, and your willingness to order the commercial wads rather than rely on your home made ones.

If you really want to test these fairly, without letting your own bias affect the results, have someone else load your gun for you, while you look away. If you don't know if you are shooting a load with the wads or not, you are less likely to subconsciously shoot the gun differently to prove your own bias. Then have someone else shoot your gun with the different combinations, so you can see what his results achieve. Don't tell him when you change the loads, and don't let him watch you load the gun. Make it a true " blind " test.

When I shot my rifle using OP wads( Walter's .50 cal. Fiber wads, not the T/C Felt prelubes that Roundball uses) I was totally cynical about what they would do for my gun. My brother was the one who bought the wads, and gave them to me to try. A couple of shots over a chronograph established that my velocity was increased measurably- to the point I checked my adjustable powder measure to be sure I did not have it set wrong! The target showed that my RB were hitting consistently higher on the target at 50 yards than when I did not use the OP wad.

Because I have been gathering materials to shoot a test with a variety of fillers, I have not yet taken the gun out to the range to test it further to see about group sizes.The initial shots fired showed great promise, and I have seen some of my brother's targets that show marked improvement in group size, using OP wads. But, for me, I am still sceptical, and the " jury is out ".

The real advantage the OP wads have shown me so far is that I can reduce the SDV using the wads, and probably reduce the powder charge to get the same velocity and POI. Now, being the Cheap GUY I am, I will have to figure out how the cost of the wads, or fillers, compares to the savings on cost of powder.

I want to spend a day at the range testing all of the fillers and wads in one session, to see if I truly get better accuracy, too, and which filler to use to get the best results.

 

[roundball]

After looking over your post again I see you were shooting 60 grains of 3f.
Powder charge alone is a major factor in accuracy. I bet if you increased your powder charge you'd see a big difference in your groups.
Shoot 3 shot groups, with and without OPW's, and up your charge 5 grains at a time. Somewhere in there you should find the sweet spot.
My GM barrels sweet spot is 90 grains of Goex 2f. If I shoot 85 or 95 grains the groups open up.
Finding the sweet spot is the fun part.
HD

An excellent example of just one of the many variables in constructing loads for muzzleloaders...its not uncommon to see somebody introduce one change into a set of components and if they don't get the same results others might be getting, they draw conclusions that others are wrong...but we all know incorrect conclusions come from incorrect assumptions...apples and oranges.

 

[longcruise]

Interesting test. I'm unable to read the printouts. Can you post the average velocities and SDs?

 

[tjohnson56]

Paul, please post the results of your filler test, it's something that really interests me.

I've been trying to develop a hunting load using corn meal, and I am getting better groups. Now I'm starting to think I should just go PRB and find the right powder charge first then try the corn meal or OPW. Just so darn many ways to go, to many combinations.

 

[jtmattison]

By the way what are you using for grease in your homemade wads ?

I use my homemade lube which is about 60:40 olive oil and beeswax. About the same as you reported.
I also use the same lube on my patches during humid days. On dry days I use Stumpy's Moose Juice or Hoppes BP solvent/patch lube.

HD

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

O.k.

This thread came about as the result of some statements made in another thread.

I made this statement...

I see the OPW users circumventing the load developement aspect of muzzleloading, instead of working up the optimal load, load what they want and resort to the OPW as a way of improving a poor load. Each of the individual components must come together to create the ultimate combination.

As a result of reading these statements...

1) TC .45cal RB barrel”¦.018” TC precut/prelubed pillow ticking with a Hornady .440” could easily be thumb started”¦not a very tight PRB combo”¦and when using 90grns Goex 3F the patches would be burned / shredded. As soon as I started using Oxyoke prelubed wads over the powder charge to act as a firewall, the patches came out so new and still lubed they could be reused, and just for testing, I did.

That's what I said...this thread is about "wads" and I was using the .45cal loose fit PRB precisely as an example to prove that wads protect patches. The Hornady .440's were fine in all my other .45cals...just one barrel seemed an eyelash larger and had this problem...I used wads to keep the patches from burning/shredding.

And then recieved this reply...

First:
You've drawn incorrect conclusions and subsequently made incorrect statements;


I have to agree with Roundball. I don't see one hint of the idea that you use an OP Wad to make up for a poor load, anywhere until this post above.

And then we get uppity with these remarks...

Second:
I hope you'll rest up soon so you can come back and continue clarifying everything about muzzleloading for us;

I too can't wait for you to come back on the forum and tell us all what we are doing wrong.

That brings us to the current thread, where I get this response...

An excellent example of just one of the many variables in constructing loads for muzzleloaders...its not uncommon to see somebody introduce one change into a set of components and if they don't get the same results others might be getting, they draw conclusions that others are wrong...but we all know incorrect conclusions come from incorrect assumptions...apples and oranges.

The very least you could do is show some respect for the work of others and read the post before you add your input instead of just assuming you know what is being said. I made no assumptions or conclusions, I provided the information I found during my session and made these disclaimers about my results...

I must admit that I was shooting with a handicap today as I am out of contacts and must shoot with my glasses, this drastically affects my sight picture as the contacts put the focal plane right on the eye as opposed to 1" away like with glasses. I also was using a target that I am not familiar with so it also added a bit of a handicap. At this point I feel that the tests were inconclusive and will need follow up testing to confirm the results.


I am going to order some of the wads that are being used by the guys that are singing the praises and see if that changes things.

As far as apples to oranges I feel that you are wrong, apples to oranges would be card wads to felt wads, there should be minimal difference between the felt wads you use and the ones I used, but only further testing will prove this out.

Make no mistake about my intentions with these tests, I am not interested in skewing the results to influence opinion, I am interested in the truth as well.

Also understand that I am not some wet behind the ears newby at this, I have devoted a large amount of time to this discipline.

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

Without OPW
1st tape
high of 1485fps
low of 1366fps
spread 119fps
average 1430fps
SD 33


With OPW
2nd tape
high of 1535fps
low of 1345fps
spread 190fps
average 1445fps
SD 43


Without...
3rd tape
high of 1522fps
low of 1338fps
spread 184fps
average 1441fps
SD 61


With...
4th tape
high of 1437fps
low of 1260fps
spread 177fps
average 1354fps
SD 60


Without...
5th tape
high of 1396fps
low of 1293fps
spread 103fps
average 1346fps
SD 32

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

I have been using a wet patch lube that I have yet to get the recipie for, but am fairly sure that it contains soluable oil.

I also am looking for a wad to isolate my patch juice from my powder charge, I was offered a large babyfood jar of bear grease and cannot wait to try it out on the wads.

Thanks again for your input.

Cannot wait to get my contacts, I'm also headed down to the architects place to have some of my good targets run off.

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

This is a follow up on my range session with the OPWs and PRBs. The results were inconsistant and not conclusive in my pea brain.

I found two seperate things that bothered me with this test.
First off, the very first OPW that was fired was lubed with a grease concoction I found while perusing this board, upon swabbing I noticed that I was not happy with the residue left behind so promptly switched to a different group of wads.

Second thing was the size of the groups overall, especially at 50 yds bench rest, so while picking up my equipment I gathered up some patches and pitched them in the back of my truck so I could look at them a bit later.

Coyote Joe :hatsoff: Good Call

The problem is that all of your groups are so large that random chance becomes a big factor.

What I found after looking at the patches is that with a .026 patch and .495 ball in a .50 cal. rifle I am pushing the limits of the denim material upon loading, its cutting at the muzzle.

When I started the quest for accuracy a month or so ago this rifle had approx. 500 rds thru her so the lands were pretty much burr free at the crown, loading was stiff with this combination but it didn't cut the patches. I did a bit of modification at the muzzle (gleened from another site) to help eliviate this problem and in doing so exposed fresh crisp lands at the crown. Tonight after looking at the patches I worked it a bit more and will be testing this whole thing out again. ( I will post the results of this work at a later date.)

Anyway here are the picks, the left hand patches are without OPWs, the middle patches are with the OPWs, and the right hand patches are washed OPW patches ( they are still wet in the picture so the cutting is less obvious ).

Side note, the OPW patches were dry and crusty, may be the lack of humidity or the grease lube on the wads.

Enjoy...

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

Ordered wads from TOTW today, should be here around the middle of next week.