My first rifle... suggestions please?

[Lonegun1894]

Welcome to this addiction. As to caliber, they all have their uses, but many will overlap to some extent. Here is the thing. I load my own for my moderns like you and cast my own for my MLs, so I don't consider what is available on the shelf to be an advantage or a disadvantage, and seeing as you seem to think the same way, I don't think you should either. Just buy the proper mould once you settle on a caliber and you have ammo for as long as you have lead. So now that we have THAT problem solved... Bigger calibers use more powder and more lead, and recoil more, obviously, and smaller calibers are the opposite, just as in the modern guns you're used to. Here is where it gets different. In moderns, you can change bullet shapes to achieve a higher BC and extend your range somewhat, but this goes out the window when you decide to shoot RBs. The larger and therefore heavier balls will have slightly higher BCs, but when compared to a modern bullet, the RB has the aerodynamics of a thrown rock, but don't let that discourage you. The bigger (heavier) RBs will maintain their velocity and trajectory to slightly longer ranges, and will be less affected by wind drift. Do yourself and all of us a HUGE favor and go ahead and completely forget about "energy" as is often used to describe modern calibers because in this game, it doesn't matter. We depend on the size and weight of the ball to do the task at hand, but if you compare numbers on charts, they are so heavily skewed in favor of the moderns that is doesn't come close to showing the true capability of the RB. Since you said you are not a hunter, all you need enough power to do it to punch through a piece of paper, which isn't much at all, so just don't worry about it. So how far do you want to shoot? Most of us agree that the RB is a very efficient tool out to about 100 yds or so, but that is more due to the traditional iron sights than anything else, and can be stretched out further if you're up for it, but just remember the low BC and the loss of velocity and ever increasing drop exhibited by RBs when you get much beyond the 100yd mark. The Rb may still be very capable, but hitting with it starts becoming very challenging once you start stretching it's legs. Having said all that, no one caliber is more accurate than any other, but some are preffered for some purposes over others. My favorites and .32 for small game, and .54 for large game and targets. Obviously, the .54 uses quite a bit more powder and lead per shot than the .32 does. It is also much less affected by wind than the little .32. Many competitors prefer the .40 and .45 due to cheap powder/lead costs and low recoil allowing more practice for less cost and less fatigue for the shooter. Nothing against the smaller calibers, but most hunters seem to go to the .50 and .54 due to them being capable of taking anything in the lower 48 States, but some prefer to go bigger still either due to personal preference or due to the game in their areas. Personally, I think the .54 is about perfect, allowing the largest and heaviest ball to be driven at very respectable velocity to allow me to take game out to about 125yds, while still giving me something resembling powder efficiency with low recoil. But it does use more powder and lead than my .50, or my .45, or especially my .32. It is really all the caliber I need to hunt anything here in Texas, and I wouldn't hesitate to hunt anything in North America with it. But some here have .58s, and .62s, and even bigger, so the perfect caliber is a combination of what you want to do, and what size ball and level of performance makes you happy. Back when all I had was a .50, it was absolutely perfect for anything from squirrels on up to deer and hogs, and did it all just fine. Now that I have more MLs I pick the one best suited to what I am trying to accomplish. After all, it doesn't take a .50 RB to kill a squirrel so that is a waste of powder and lead, but the rifle is still as capable as ever. No matter what you choose, it will not be your last, so just read and learn before buying, and if possible, try several before buying also, so you get a better idea of what is or isn't comfortable, since it isn't just looks that matter. There are many great rifles out there. Many here have TC hawkens, I have one too, but prefer the feel of the Lyman GPR, which I also have and hunt with. Then there are the likes of TVM and many other very skilled makers that can make you a rifle that is much better made and much more authentic than any TC, but you will pay for it and the rifle probably won't shoot much better than a TC or Lyman. So before buying, figure out what it is you want, and I don't mean a general idea but rather all the details, and then buy. The better informaed you are, the happier you will be with your purchase when you make it. For example, my first ML was a CVA, then came my Lyman GPRs, and then my TVM. The CVA was less than $200, the TVM, by the time everything was said and done, was closer to $1200, with the Lymans being about $500ish. They all shoot equally well, but when you look at the guns side by side, the TVM is a beauty, the Lymans are good, and the CVA looks like a weathered old fence post--but that is my fault because I bought it as a kit and am leaving it the way it is as a reminder of where I began as opposed to where I am hoping to get to someday as far as gun building skills go. Handle and look at enough different guns and you will eventually find a specific type that just pulls at you, and you will know exactly what you want. But take your time and learn as much as possible before you decide on the nice one, while also remembering that a gun doesn't have to be fancy to get your feet wet cause most of us here started with something cheap to figure out what we like and don't like, and only then moved on to something more specific. If you go with a production gun, you can't go wrong with a TC hawken or a Lyman GPR, and I would suggest that route first to allow you to learn while still having a good rifle to learn on so you can decide IF you want a custom, and if so, exactly which one and made by whom--maybe one you build since it sounds like you have the skills.

 

[54ball]

This is the Chambers Ketland. It's made like The Ketland and Company locks from 1790-1820 there about.
The English at that time were the best lock makers in the world. That roller helps reduce friction on the outside frizzen spring. A lock can function well without it.
The English liked to do extra things to their locks in that era, some even had sliding safety devices.

Here is the guts of the lock. Here you can see how the mainspring works the tumbler., the part hanging down is the sear bar. The trigger bar pushes this up to fire.

Here is a simple trigger. If pinned high into the front corner this gives good leverage for trigger pull.

Here is a set trigger. Here the spring is set by the rear trigger and when the front is barley touched it "trips" or pops up to engage the sear bar.

I hope by seeing this you can better understand how the lock and set triggers work.

This is a German/American Jaeger or deer rifle.
This one is rather plain. 1730s to 1770. These were large caliber,.62 was not uncommon.

This is a newer made Jacob Dickert Rifle. about 1780 or so. Rev War era

This is a JP Beck. Beck was active until his death in the early 1800s. This is another example of a Rev War or immediate post war rifle. Average caliber in this era.50 to .54.

This is an John Armstrong. A golden Age 1812 era rifle. Note how the barrel looks different compared to the Beck and Dickert. This Armstrong has a straight barrel while the earlier rifles have swamped or fat at the breach skinny at about 7/8 down the length and then a flare at the muzzle. This was the style and it also balances the weight.
The Armstong with it's straight barrel will be more muzzle heavy but should hold on target well.
Note how highly decorated it is. It is a "Golden Age" rifle. Average caliber .45

All of theses rifles above have Germanic or Germanic American style locks, this tells the region they are from, the north Pennsylvania, Maryland.

Here is another view of my NC Mountain Gillespie. Note that it is very plain with a Tallow or grease hole and no butt plate. These plain rifles are common in the Southern Mountains. It is 1810 so it's from the same time as the Highly decorated Armstrong. This rifle was made by simple folks for a simple purpose. Earlier rifles even from the South would have some decoration. By 1810 mountain rifles can be found very plain.
Another thing about Southern rifles is that most used English made locks. These were made from Virginia into Alabama in the Appalachian Mountains. Production of these never really stopped.

I'll finish up with a percussion Vincent 1860s-70s theses were West of the Appalachians made in the Midwest. I think they are very pretty. Average caliber for these and the southern mountains 32 to .45.
I hope you get an idea how the longrifle changed through time.
When purchasing a longrifle the best thing to do is research and get what you want. In my opinion if you get a more expensive one, make sure it is correct for the era.
It need not be to expensive. I got a deal on my Gillespie and it correct for 1810 and was even made by a descendent from the Gillespie family.

 

[nkbj]

As touched upon above, my first suggestion would be to say your location. Someone on this forum is liable to be happy to introduce you to the black arts.

 

[Col. Batguano]

I would suggest going to a Rendezvous and handling as many as you can there. This is by and large a traditionalists crowd on this forum, so that's what you're mostly going to hear prejudices toward, particularly in rock locks.

Other options are hunting the more traditional on-line sites, and waiting for just the right thing to come along. They usually go pretty cheap there, because those aren't good places to sell that stuff.

Of course there are gun shows, but these days it's all full of black gun stuff, and the crowds are large, and deals few.

If you want, you can go the build route, but be prepared for a long education. In the end, you won't save any money, because you'll spend it on tools and books along your journey.

 

[D Sanders]

Is Stainless steel and plastic pre-1865?

HH 60

 

[moemag]

Billnpatti: I have often shot bird shot out of my shotty with a rifle choke in it to get a huge pattern. Can’t say I have ever seen a doughnut pattern”¦Off to the pattern board next time! I doubt I will have any use for a smoothbore. I have a very large open range and will be testing the limits of how far one can shoot with whatever I get. I’m pretty good at making slug hits out of a cylinder bore modern shotgun with rifle sights out to 150yds”¦ and I hope that my future flintlock can at least have that kind of performance. However, one of my favorite tricks is to split the back of a bird shot round so the whole thing goes flying out the barrel”¦ that could be useful if I can mimic that in a ML. I’m a fan of random thoughts”¦ keep ”˜em coming.

Lonegun1894: loved that post. You sound of similar mind. Loved the insight regarding RB... how about maxie/minie ball? Significant improvement? Anyway I think I am certainly leaning toward making one now. 54ball’s post made me drool a little.

54ball”¦ Thanks for that post. Pictures are good. I think I will look into making one pretty seriously.I have already set my supplier on a hunt for the TC, so hopefully he doesn't find one and I can call it off. That second gun from the top that you posted”¦ I really like the length and it’s overall profile. I would loose the brass box on the stock”¦ is that a patch box, grease hole”¦ or is that the same thing? Also”¦ what’s with the structure behind the trigger guard”¦ looks like something that can get bent or snagged easily.

Hawken hunter 60:
corrosion resistant iron-chromium alloys were discovered in 1821, and Parkesine was patented in 1856.

Don’t feel too bad I’m starting to sway toward getting a traditional flintlock now :wink:

I see a lot of Kentucky,Tennessee, and other state names... My family is from Georgia basically as long as Georgia has been there. Is there a particular style from there?

 

[54ball]

54ball”¦ Thanks for that post. Pictures are good. I think I will look into making one pretty seriously.I have already set my supplier on a hunt for the TC, so hopefully he doesn't find one and I can call it off. That second gun from the top that you posted”¦ I really like the length and it’s overall profile. I would loose the brass box on the stock”¦ is that a patch box, grease hole”¦ or is that the same thing? Also”¦ what’s with the structure behind the trigger guard”¦ looks like something that can get bent or snagged easily.

That structure you are asking about is part of the trigger guard.

Here is the same iron guard on a southern style rifle 1810-20 era.
To translate "Kentucky Rifle" to the modern shooter, That part of the trigger guard serves the same purpose as a pistol grip on a modern rifle. It is very robust. A matter of fact some old broken rifles are found and the trigger guard is holding them together.

I would loose the brass box on the stock”¦ is that a patch box, grease hole”¦ or is that the same thing?

I think my answer may be clear as mud, but here goes.
The Jaeger 1st rifle from my previous post and the Beck third rifle down have sliding wood patch boxes. The sliding boxes are retained with a spring and they can slide off the rifle.

Many of the surviving brass box rifles may have had wood boxes when new, because sometimes the wood box was lost. The recess in the wood box is for the finger or thumb to slide it off.

Both the brass box and wood box rifles have a cavity drilled with a brace and bit then squared. In it they would hold patches maybe a worm for cleaning, tow and most show evidence of grease.
Grease Hole....

Here is my Appalachian Gillespie with it's grease, Tallow or Taller hole. You can see that it is at an angle for the sweep of the thumb. This is a Gillespie feature as most grease holes in other rifles were simply drilled holes. Some were squared holes.

When loading the patch was simply wiped through the hole to get grease.

Sometimes you will see a covered grease hole on later southern guns. They will look like a small patch box.

This is not to be confused with the small box on later percussion plains rifles that have a "cap box".

There is some debate on when the grease hole appeared. Some say it could possibly be Rev War but none that old have been found. It is safe to say circa 1800.

Kings Mountain Military Park, the 1781 South Carolina battle that turned the tide of the War, has a Southern longrifle on dispaly with a grease hole.

 

[54ball]

Here is a confirmed 1820 Ga. Rifle.
Link The Gamecock
A possible Rev War Carolina rifle.
Link possinly Carolina

Link North Carolina 1800

Link 1800 southern region

Link 1780s 90 Tennessee

Link Free Born Rev War Virginia?

All of these could be what a early Ga rifle looked like.

A fine Pennsylvania long rifle was found in a Indian grave in North Alabama some years back. So even a Lancaster like the Dickert you like could have been found in Ga.

Gun building is difficult. If you want build one I recommend these folks they are the best. I've never heard of anyone not satisfied with what they got. They have great support to from what I hear.
Link Jim Chambers

Here is their Lancaster...

Here is their Haynes Lancaster

Here is one that you may really like. It is a smooth rifle with a English lock. A smooth rifle has the rifle shaped stock and rear sight but a smooth bore. It can shoot ball and shot. It will shoot with a rifle at least to 70 yards or so. Very appropriate for early Georgia. It has the simple trigger guard without the grip.

Do not take my word for it. Do your own research. Also research gunbuilding to make sure that's for you. There is a gun building section here on the forum.

As said you really won't save money unless you already have the proper tools IE fine chisels rasps ect. The only power tool you'll use is a drill press or power drill.

If you want early Georgia. Do some research there.

What you are considering could be a family heirloom that will be cherished for generations. So choose wisely.

 

[moemag]

I think I'm leaning toward the Jim Chambers Pennsylvania Fowler RK-6 with rifled .50 barrel.

Thoughts?

 

[kodiakmarine]

Hi moemag. I am coming into the discussion late, but I have read your earlier posts. The Jim Chambers kits are as good as you can get. If the fowler with a rifled barrel is what you want, then by all means get it. Glad to see you going for a high quality traditional piece. One option that would be accurate historically for one who likes stainless is to simply polish the steel to a mirror finish. I'm sure you can find forum members who have done that and can explain how. Polished steel is nearly as rust resistant as stainless and even better looking. Best of luck. :thumbsup:

 

[54ball]

I think I'm leaning toward the Jim Chambers Pennsylvania Fowler RK-6 with rifled .50 barrel.

Thoughts?

That's a great choice and good for North Georgia from the 1700s and maybe even past the CW.
It's a great looking gun.
In a rifled barrel it should be a tack driver. 50 is great but I like .54.

You may want to consider the smoothbore option in 54/28ga or .62/20ga.
With a smoothbore, there is nearly unlimited ways to load and shoot ball or shot through it. It is surprising how accurate they can be for their range.
So, if you like to tinker on the range, you can have a lifetime of fun with all the different loadings for a smoothbore.
With a rear sight the range is stretched a bit as it is considered a smooth rifle then, but it still will shoot shot well too.

A rifled Fowler will be a dream to hold and shoot.
That's a great choice in either smooth or rifled. I wish I had one.

 

[moemag]

Hmmm... so I figured out fowler is in reference to shooting fowl...go figure :/. How inappropriate is it to have a rifled Fowler? Almost seems like an oxymoron. I really dont think I want a smoothbore. I have heard roomers of making good shots at 200-250yards with rifled guns...that sounds like fun. If I'm gonna shoot shot I want two barrels. Huh that could be fun on the sporting clay course a flintlock sxs.

 

[54ball]

If you get it with a rifled barrel, technically it becomes a rifle with the stock characteristics of a fowler.

How inappropriate is it to have a rifled Fowler? Almost seems like an oxymoron.

If you are asking if such a gun existed just like a the Penn Fowler with a rifled barrel? My honest answer would be, "I do not know for sure." As always research is required if one wants a true historical example.

I will share my opinion though....

If it were an English or even New England made fowler of the 1770s I would say it was possible but unlikely you'll find one rifled.

Since it is based on a Pennsylvania Fowler and Pennsylvania followed by Virginia were the main rifle producing areas of the Colonies,this fowler has somewhat of a rifle look to it as in made by a smith who could have made rifles and lastly rifles were made with the octagonal to round barrel....

I would say it is very possible maybe even probable that a few rifles may have been built as such by special request. Or a fowler was taken to a smith and rifled. Or during a restock ream or repair the fowler was rifled.

Is it appropriate, In my opinion it is.

With all that aside I think it would make a sweet shooting rifle.

250 yards.... maybe not that sweet.
Depends on the target and if you use a spotter. You should be able to gong a man sized target that far. As far as precision that far... It would take A Lot of practice.

For hunting deer size game, 250 yards is about 125 yards too far. That is unless you have lots of powder were really really hungry and could track really well. IMHO

 

[54ball]

Flintlock double fowlers are very nice guns but the cost is astronomical unless you craft most of it yourself. Even then they are very expensive,
I know this Chambers set is not cheap but a Fine double runs into the thousands of dollars.

With that said about cost.....

moemag, make sure building is for you before you take the plunge. Research about building. Think about it. It is very easy to take $1000.00 of parts and make a $200 gun.

Chambers kits are the best but they will still be difficult. Remember if it were easy everybody would have have one. The main thing is use hand tools, take your time and pay attention to detail. Do not rush it.

 

[don hepler]

I started my flintlock journey here on this forum. I have owned many modern and collectible rifles and handguns, and one day the flintlock bug hit me. I started with a TC Renegade flintlock, that showed up, in my local gun shop, which is rare for this part of the country. The Renegade was unfired in the original box for 275.00 I used it to learn, and get all the necessary items together that I needed to shoot it.
I still had the desire for a more traditional rifle, and after considerable search, I decided to go Dixon's gun builders fair in Penn. I met a gentelman from Cross Plains, Tenn.by the name of Tip Curtis. He sells rifles in the white. These rifles are absolutly the best kits that I have seen. It is hard for me to use the word "kit" to describe these rifles. The rifle was finished to the point that I could have used it, just like it was. The stock needed final sanding and stain and finish. The barrel needed some finish work and blueing and rust finish. The toe plate and lock plate was even engraved. It had all the top parts, swamped barrel, siler lock, davis trigger, etc. Yes, it cost 1200., but the value now would be 1600.-1800. I wish I could post pics., but haven't learned how. You can search, imformation about Tip, but he doesn't have a web site. Just anouther option.

 

[cajunjoe]

For less than a grand, I bought(several years ago) a Getz "A" wt .40 cal swamped barrel, Siler lock, and the stock and other components from Track of the Wolf and built the rifle myself. I have a rack full of ribbons I have won with that rifle! 35 gr of 3F is all it takes out to 50 yds. Build your own and have fun!

 

[kodiakmarine]

If you are going to put the time and money into building a rifle you should build what you really want. This style of firearm is correct for that time and period. I cannot say if there were any rifles that were exactly like this particular fowler, but I'm sure that at least some were very close in appearance. Build what you want and enjoy! :hatsoff:

 

[kodiakmarine]

One last comment. Fowler barrels tend to be lighter and thinner than most rifle barrels. Jim Chambers won't sell anything that is unsafe, but be sure to stay within the recomended maximum load. It doesn't take that much powder to hit a target or kill a deer. :thumbsup:

 

[moemag]

HA! No doubt on the $1000 kit being a $200 gun. No, I have to say I have had very good instructors over the years and my work reflects it. I bet I could do a pretty decent job putting together a J.Chambers kit.

To be certain I ordered their assembly DVD to see what it's all about. I'll see how that looks.

Also thanks for the support of the rifled fowler. Sounds like something that would be unique. I like that.

I will keep yall updated! Thanks for the help

 

[Twisted_1in66]

One last comment. Fowler barrels tend to be lighter and thinner than most rifle barrels. Jim Chambers won't sell anything that is unsafe, but be sure to stay within the recomended maximum load. It doesn't take that much powder to hit a target or kill a deer. :thumbsup:

Fowler barrels are lighter and thinner than most rifle barrels because, a "fowler" is a smoothbore, not a rifle... Smoothbores don't develop the pressures that rifles do so they can use a lighter barrel. A "fowler" was used to hunt fowl (hence the name) like a modern shotgun, and was also used to shoot a round ball for hunting deer as long as the range was within 50-70 yards or so.

Before the French joined the war in 1778, a lot of fowlers were used by New Englanders because that's what they used day in and day out and was often the only "firelock" they had.

Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup: