My gun loves 2F? Bah! Humbug!

[George]

The skeptic in me occasionally rears his ugly head concerning some of the accepted "facts" we all know and love. The latest rearing was triggered by a couple of threads about 3F vs 2F powder. It is frequently stated that a particular gun "likes" 3F or 2F, but not the other, that one granulation always shoots more accurately in that gun than the other, and no one quibbles.

Let's quibble. Shooting a specific rifle, what could possible be a real-world cause for a difference in accuracy between different granulations of powder?

I'll state my case first. I don't believe in the difference. The way I see it, inside the barrel, the ball is accelerated to a specific velocity. It leaves the muzzle traveling at a certain speed, and it leaves everything that happened to it inside the barrel behind it. It doesn't matter what method is used to get to that velocity, 2F, 3F, compressed air, etc. It doesn't matter if the velocity was gained slowly or quickly, with higher pressure or lower. There should be no difference in accuracy between granulations so long as the amounts are titrated so that precisely the same MV is achieved, and that is repeated with every shot.

Next?

Spence

 

[stronics]

It's all greek to me too. Could it be the difference in burning rates. As the charge goes off I've heard it's similar to hitting the barrel with a hammer and it rings(vibrates). Maybe 2f is a softer hammer.
Oh, my 45 has a preference for 3f go figure.
David

 

[Rev_William]

I was wondering if it had to do with how fast the shot was accelerated to max speed maybe effecting the shooters lead time on wing/running shots? I just shoot try not to think about what my guns "loves" or not.

 

[asbrown]

:stir: :stir: :stir:
Lets see now. Assuming you could get the exact amount of powder needed to get the same MV from FF and FFF
Assuming the change in pressure didn't cut ,damage, or blow by the patch.
Assuming all the powder was burned evenly by the end of the barrel.
Assuming your hold and follow through were the same.
And of course allowing that all atmospheric conditions were the same for both shots.
I'm with you. The laws of mechanics and physics dictate that there should be no difference between the two.
Of course the laws of psychology don't follow the same path. If we thinkthat our gun shoots better with FF then everytime we try FFF the groups will grow.
NEXT
:blah: :blah: :blah:
:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
:stir: :stir: :stir:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Spence,

The ball gets to a certain velocity, but the acceleration may be different. I'd have to see whether FFFg burns/explodes faster than FFg (more surface area in a given volume) and so leans more towards kick than push.

But I have no way to test that theory.

 

[necchi]

I've never quibbled over what one says is better for his gun, 2F vrs 3F because I've always felt it's about the individuals loading technique.

All the variables, patch thickness, patch lube, ball size, bore condition and how an individual deals with it,,
and everyone has a different final seating pressure.

ALL of those combined are and/or can be unique to each person loading.
The seating pressure alone would be a huge variable in the use of either powder.

So when one person says 2F works best for him, and another says it's 3F well,, It probably does.

The same can be said for different powders,
2F Swiss, is WAY different than 2F Schutzen.
Pyrodex P is a far cry from Triple 7 3F.

Only experiment with my gun(s) and different powders and loads can show me what's best for that gun with my technique.

There is NO Single Best for each gun and or for each loader,,

Unless of course your one guy that uses 90grn of 3F in 3 differrent guns and it's the best load for each of them because he uses the same patch lube an thickness for each and cleans them all the same and ,,,,,,,, :barf:

 

[cynthialee]

All I know is that when I put the 'wrong' powder in a firearm my acuracy is not up to par.
Maybe it is psychological. Maybe it is physics. I don't know, but I do know when I stick with the 'right' powder for the job it seems to work better.
So I use the recomended type of powder for the job.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Only the 'Xs' know.

 

[Zonie]

Well, maybe if everything was equal then the final results would be equal but right off the bat, everything can't be equal when shooting 2Fg and 3Fg powder.

2Fg powder creates less pressure when compared grain for grain with 3Fg powder.

To save folks the trouble of comparing this:
Using an identical barrel with an identical patch and ball, Lyman tested and published large tables that consistently show the breech pressure for a given powder load is less with 2Fg powder than it is with 3Fg powder.

An example is Lymans 28", 1:48 twist .50 caliber barrel shooting a .490 ball with a .015 Ox-Yoke patch with 80 grains of GOEX 2Fg produced a breech pressure of 6,400 psi while the same barrel with 80 grains of GOEX 3Fg produced a breech pressure of 9,500 psi.
The 80 grain 2Fg load produced a MV of 1573 fps and the 80 grain 3Fg load produced a MV of 1748 fps.

Obviously one cannot just load one powder load of 2Fg and 3Fg and expect to see the same results.

This means in order to get the same velocity, one would have to increase the powder load of 2Fg powder.

Using the same Lyman tables the nearest velocity to the 80 grain 3Fg powder load would be 100 grains of 2Fg which produced a velocity of 1729 fps (19 fps slower).
That's a 25 percent change in the powder charge. (20 grain increase/80 grain load = .25, or 25 percent).

Most folks realize that changing a powder load 25 percent will effect the guns accuracy.

The additional 20 grains of 2Fg powder results in an increase in the amount of ejected material of 7.78 percent* which will increase the recoil of the gun and in theory, change the harmonic response of the barrel.

In other words, things are not equal when shooting 2Fg and 3Fg powder so I don't believe anyone should assume the results will be the same.
Especially accuracy.


* (177 grain ball weight + 100 grain powder)/ (177 grain ball weight + 80 grain powder) = 1.0778 = 107.78 percent.

 

[BrownBear]

I've always given my guns the chance to speak for themselves, shooting them with both 2f and 3f, and more recently with 1f in 54 cal and larger. I sure see better groups with one or the other in many of my rifles. In both 54 and 58 caliber, which I have five of each, some shoot tighter with one or the other. The exceptions are one in each caliber that doesn't care. More shooting required with 1f to say much about it in rifles.

BTW- The differences don't appear significant at 25 and 50 yards, but at 75 and 100 yards it's clear.

But in shotguns with shot, whooeee. I'll take 1f over either 2f or 3f any day in my 20, 12 and 10 gauges. There's a decided improvement in patterns, both in density and "evenness" around the fringe when using the 1f. And 2f is better than 3f.

Blanket statements "agin" something worry me as much as blanket statements "fer" something. I gotta test them to my own satisfaction, and almost always find the blanket has holes in it.

 

[Bill Hall]

Back in the 80's, I built a rifle around a .54 Tru Bore barrel, 1-66 twist I believe. Weird barrel, 6 lands and grooves, and lands were same width as the grooves. Also, the rifling wasn't very deep. I could not get that rifle to shoot worth a darn, but I always shot ffg. Years later I cannibalized the barrel to make a little rifle for my daughter, but she started out shooting 777 in it with great accuracy. When we ran out of the substitute powder, we tried ffg, and again, the accuracy went south. It was like we were shooting a smoothbore. We went to fffg and guess what, right back to shooting 1" groups at 50 yards.

I figure the slower burning ffg just didn't have the initial oomph to expand the ball into the wide shallow rifling. The fffg and 777 have more kick and a louder bang, so I'm guessing the higher pressure upset the ball enough to grab the rifling.

I may be wrong as to how and why the faster and slower burning powders affected accuracy, but I can tell you there was a heck of a difference. Bill

 

[dcriner]

Reportedly, accuracy can be degraded by harmonics induced in the barrel, which can be affected by loads.

 

[lonehunter]

Other than 3f burns a LOT cleaner, I notice no difference in my rifle. :idunno:

 

[nchawkeye]

Other than 3f burns a LOT cleaner, I notice no difference in my rifle. :idunno:

I'm in this camp and with FFF, no need for FFFF...

Plus, since I lower my charges a bit, more shots per pound...

 

[Billnpatti]

Muzzleloders are funny. They are similar to children in that they have their likes and dislikes. One will like one load and another will like a different one. One will like one lube and another one will like another lube better. One will like one thickness of patch while another likes another thickness. So, is it so unbelievable that one gun will like one granulation better than it does another?

 

[George]

Muzzleloders are funny. They are similar to children in that they have their likes and dislikes. One will like one load and another will like a different one. One will like one lube and another one will like another lube better. One will like one thickness of patch while another likes another thickness. So, is it so unbelievable that one gun will like one granulation better than it does another?

My problem is that I'm skeptical of much of that list you detail. I know it's the gospel according to Greybeard, but it has many, many times not been my experience. There seems to be a big body of this type belief, and it is all kind of spooky and mysterious and wonderful. Ask a tough question about what makes our guns work, and you are very likely to get some version of the above answer, but not as much real evidence as would fit in a gnat's eye. :haha:

Things don't happen in guns just for the heck of it, or because the gun is in some kind of mood, that day. Things happen because of real physical effects. Everything about them does. All I'm asking is whether there are any real physical effects which might make one granulation more accurate than another.

Spence

 

[Zonie]

...All I'm asking is whether there are any real physical effects which might make one granulation more accurate than another.

I think it's just one of life's little mysteries.

Although due to forum rules I shouldn't say it, all top target shooters using a .22 LR know that different cartridges shoot differently even though they are the same weight slug, same velocity, same bullet material and the same size in the same gun.

It's no surprise to me that your gun shows no preference between 2Fg and 3Fg powder but Bills or Joes or some other folks seemingly identical rifle shows a marked difference.

 

[ebiggs1]

Being a little gun shy about posting, but heck I am going to anyhow! I can take it bring it on.

I am in pretty close agreement with you on the difference which may be there but it is small.
It brings me to the over used phrase, “All muzzle loaders are different.” Well, yes, they probably are but they are more similar than they differ. If this were not so, load data tables would be useless.

It seems logical if the pressure is matched and the velocity is the same the accuracy would be inevitable. Oh, man, do I see another test in the future?

 

[Moose Guide]

When reloading for cartridge rifles you can see quickly that some powders do not work well in some rifles!!!

 

[necchi]

It seems logical if the pressure is matched and the velocity is the same the accuracy would be inevitable.

But it doesn't happen that way.
Someone mentioned earlier about harmonics, I don't think that plays in allot with our Traditional MLs, but
There is internal and external ballistics happening none the less.

You kinda gotta think of the action of the powder, it's not really burning or exploding, try to think of those as just words we use to describe what happens.

The powder is oxidizing into a gas, degrading, from a powder form into a gas form.
When powder oxidizes pressure increases, this increased pressure accelerates the degrading process, so it's the rate of increased pressure that's the variable.
3F burns faster than 2F and internal pressure is built "quicker".
By changing the powder charge a person can create a situation of velocity internaly so the ball leaves the barrel at the same velocity with both powders, but it can reach that velocity with different pressures.
Ouch,
As fouling increases pressure changes,
If Lubrication changes pressure changes,
Pressure changes = Velocity changes