My pillow "tickle" cloth shot cup for 20 gauge

[roundball]

If you don't mind me saying so, you're not using anywhere near enough shot...at only 25yds + a mod choke + a shot cup...it ought to really be loading that pattern.

Try a 100grn measure of #5's and see what that pattern looks like then.
OLD SAYING: "Load powder, more lead, shoots far, kills dead"

3.5" tuna can, 25yds, my .54cal smoothbore, cylinder bore, no shot cup:
60grn measure of Goex 3F / 100grn measure of #5s

 

[Stumpkiller]

That's a dead bunny - but a modified ought to be denser than that at 25 yards (IMHO).

When you say "70 gr of shot" you do mean you're using the volume of shot that would be taken up by 70 gr of powder? (Just checking). Should give you one ounce/438 grains of shot.

 

[fusil de chase]

3.5" tuna can, 25yds, my .54cal smoothbore, cylinder bore, no shot cup:
60grn measure of Goex 3F / 100grn measure of #5s

That is one useful 54! What do you use for wads/cards?

 

[roundball]

Surprisingly, this 42" Rice barrel patterned better with a full 1/2" Circle Fly cushion wad than it did with my usual pair of 1/8" Oxyoke wonderwads...an outstanding Early Virginia put together by TVM...won't be letting go of it any time soon.
Other examples using #6s and #7.5s

 

[BrownBear]

That probably looks "thin" to a turkey shooter, but in fact is about as dense as I'd ever want at any range for rabbits. Of course I'm trying to minimize damage to sweet meat, rather than getting multiple hits. In my experience rabbits are pretty frail, and even one hit anywhere in the body will at least slow them enough to run them down. But 2 or 3 is usually best.

One thing I like is that smooth distribution with no holes that I can see.

One tip for developing a hot deal rabbit shooter: I'd use a bigger target paper so you can watch the edge or "fringe" of the pattern. In my experience that's is where the rubber meats the road, even if most hunters only look at the core.

That's cuzz I try to hit rabbits with the fringe of the pattern to limit hits at closer range. Yeah, you need to know your outer range limit, but in fact most of your rabbit shooting is going to be lots closer and you'll pay the price in messes if you center one in the pattern. Long range, sure I center the rabbit. But up close I'm pushing point of aim to one side or the other to try to keep pellets out of the back half of the body. And a ragged, uneven fringe is a PITA for doing that.

Long and short of it all, I'd say that you've got a fine rabbit killer out to 30 yards with that combo, and it will work well closer if the pattern is smooth right out to the fringe. I'd take that pattern any day over one with heavy clumping in the middle like turkey hunters want.

 

[roundball]

That probably looks "thin" to a turkey shooter, but in fact is about as dense as I'd ever want at any range for rabbits.

That's a good point as far as rabbits go.
I'm used to patterning tighter for small stationary targets like turkey heads / squirrels...and knowing he was also using a modified choke plus a shot cup...was just struck by the fact that the pattern was so thin. And I had some good targets to show some other results for illustration purposes...wasn't advocating the loads I showed were to be used for rabbits as it would tear them up...LOL.

Looked at another way, a good rabbit pattern should be easy to achieve without even going to the trouble of using shot cups at all...especially with his modified choke...if it thinned even more by eliminating the shot cup, the point of the suggestion was to simply bump up the shot charge some

 

[BrownBear]

...if it thinned even more by eliminating the shot cup, just bump up the shot charge another 1/8th, etc

Yeah, that's also a good point. I'd expect more hits from a MOD with more shot, but I'd sure like to see that whole pattern with this load. With a smooth pattern, only an ounce of #5's (170 pellets) isn't going to be very dense on an 8 1/2 x 11 paper compared to "core clumping." I count 30 or so hits on that paper, and if the pattern is smooth across a full 30" circle, I'm betting he just might be getting a MOD or better percentage. Haven't done the math for areas of the circle and paper, because it's mostly academic.

If a look at the complete pattern on a larger paper at 25 yards showed some rabbit-size holes while still delivering a MOD count, then I'd be doing some serious load changing.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Now you done caused me to think about this. Modified calls for 60% in a 30" circle at 40 yards, but I found a site that also says 100% at 20 yards and 83% at 30 yards, so lets say 92% at 25 yards.

#5 shot is 170 count per ounce. 30" circle is 706 sq in. 8-1/2 x 11" paper is 94 sq in (both approximate). Soooo.

He should have 92% of 170 * 94/706 pellets in that paper - or 21 pellets. You are correct!

But the evenness of pattern makes all the difference, as you mentioned.

Chart 1
Percentage Of Shot Inside 30”³ Circle
CHOKE 20 Yds 30 Yds 40 yds
Cylinder 80% 60% 40%
Skeet 92% 72% 50%
Improved Cylinder 100% 77% 55%
Modified 100% 83% 60%
Improved Modified 100% 91% 65%
Full 100% 100% 70%

http://www.wildfowlmag.com/tips_strategies_shotgun_062304.html

 

[BrownBear]

Now you done caused me to think about this. Modified calls for 60% in a 30" circle at 40 yards, but I found a site that also says 100% at 20 yards and 83% at 30 yards, so lets say 92% at 25 yards.

#5 shot is 170 count per ounce. 30" circle is 706 sq in. 8-1/2 x 11" paper is 94 sq in (both approximate). Soooo.

He should have 92% of 170 * 94/706 pellets in that paper - or 21 pellets. You are correct!

But the evenness of pattern makes all the difference, as you mentioned.

Fifty years of experience trolling for salmon pays off! Dangle just the right bait at just the right speed, and you'll get a hit! :rotf:

I was for sure trolling to get someone else to do the math, and I thank you for the bite! :haha:

Seriously, thanks! :thumbsup:

I may have been applying more instinct than guesswork. I shoot a lot of 7/8 oz and 1 oz loads from 20's and 12's, and that photo didn't look far off from what I expect. I'm just a little twitchy about what might be growing blank spots on the upper right and lower right, concerned that those might be too big at 30 yards, though. Could be too, that the pattern was shifted just a little left of the bunny, too.

Long and short, I'd pay attention to what's happening off the edge of that 8 1/2 x 11 paper, too.

 

[Stumpkiller]

You know, I HATED math in grade school, avoided it in high school, learned it in college (with much agony - first time I had to study hard just to erk by was calculus) and now make my living with it.

I've been "cheating" with my patterns as well - shooting at small targets rather than looking at a full 30" spread. Statistically, either will get you where you're going; but what matters is whether game is going in the bag.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Putting a sheet(DOUBLE PAGE) of newspaper behind that 8 1/2 x 11" sheet of typing paper is a good way to SEE where the pattern's POI is, compared to your POA. When you do get down to a load that seems promising, a fresh sheet of newspaper will let you get an honest look at the fringe for stringing( not good ) and for both the roundness of the pattern, and overall dispersal of shot within the pattern.

If the POI is consistently different from your point of aim, you may want to do something about that- or have someone who knows shotguns, and how to fit a gun to you do it.

For years, I only had ONE shotgun for all hunting, and it had a full choke. I also learned to use the edges of my patterns, at close ranges, to shoot rabbits, as well as pheasants and other game birds, as BrownBear describes doing, above. But, to do so, I had to know what that pattern looked like at a lot of different distances, and I spent a lot of time shooting patterns.

I also agree that this poster needs to be using more shot to get better patterns. I know he is excited about his design of his fabric shotcups, but there is more to getting better patterns than just using a fabric shotcup.

If I were him, and using only notebook paper as a target, I would start my patterning at 10 yds. Only when I liked the tight round patterns I am getting at this short yardage would I move back to 15, then 20, then 25 yds. :hmm: :thumbsup:

 

[Stumpkiller]

If you really want to blow your minds consider that pattern testing leaves out shot stringing. The third dimension. We see a bunch of holes, but don't know when they arrived on the paper in relation to one another. A great pattern puts them all there at a smaller time interval than one that arrives like water out of a garden hose. That's why a larger bore has an advantage over a smaller one on moving game even though they may have the same weight of shot.

Think of the center of your pattern arriving a half-bunny-length ahead of the edges and how that may effect hitting a moving animal.

Real gun nuts used to shoot moving plates to measure this quality. The shot cups will likely improve this without showing on a 2-D flat pattern sheet.

 

[roundball]

That's why a larger bore has an advantage over a smaller one on moving game even though they may have the same weight of shot.

:hmm: ...not sure I get this one...my 1/2oz shot loads out of my Remington 1100 .410 runs 25's in skeet as easy as my 1oz loads in a Remington 1100.12ga.
And I hope we're not over-thinking that there's any difference is pellet arrival time at the target that amounts to anything of significance.
A so called 'square load' used to be a .12ga 1oz load...but now the same .12ga shells have grown to 3.5" long with huge shot charges over 2X more shot than the so called square load...

 

[jeffdrown]

Thanks ..Guys! Like I said. I'm new too "smoothbores" I was into Flint Rifles ..A long time!

Anyway.. I'll use a bigger sheet of paper.. and more shot ( I can make shot cup any lenth). I want to try #6 shot too! This is way to much fun.. more the shooting the better ! Thanks again ..Jeff

 

[Golfswithwolves]

I'd suggest running a pattern or two with 2f powder as well if you have the time.

 

[Stumpkiller]

And I hope we're not over-thinking that there's any difference is pellet arrival time at the target that amounts to anything of significance.
A so called 'square load' used to be a .12ga 1oz load...but now the same .12ga shells have grown to 3.5" long with huge shot charges over 2X more shot than the so called square load...

Heck, over-thinking is what we do best!

Skeet's away and the effect is less noticable. Trap is that as well as side-to-side and where the slowpokes show. Also, shot deformation along the bore walls would be greater in longer but narrower shot columns of a smaller bore in the "loose" loads where there is no shot cup. The tick cup will reduce that and may be the reason it helps. I suspect that is why my flimsy grocery bag version helps - 'cause it can't do much once past the muzzle.

I'll have to refer to my O'Connor Complete Book of Rifles and Shotguns as he goes into this.

One of the things that has "grown" modern shotshells is the collapsable cushion wad and petal cup needed to keep herd on all that shot to keep it moving together.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Bob Brister's book, " Shotgunning: The Art and The Science", Winchester Press, 1976, is filled with test target pictures showing "stringing", and problems shooters face shooting at moving targets as the range increases. Pass shooters, hunting geese and ducks face this problem.

Using your experience at shooting short range dove, or Skeet Shooting, doesn't give a shooter much of an understanding of the problems, however.

Trap shooters, shooting from Handicap yardage, and Sporting clays courses where stations mimic overhead pass shooting do bring the point home.

The core of any pattern is the least likely to have damaged shot pellets in it, so it tends to fly straight, and holds together longer than the pellets on the outside of the load; where damage is common from "flats" rubbed onto the pellets by the side of the bore.

Since we simply can't generate the fast MV that smokeless powder does in shotguns, and that faster MV is needed to get best patterns at 40 and longer yardage, it is prudent for BP shotgun shooters to restrict the max. range at which they will shoot at game to 40 yards and less.

The shorter the range to your target, the lesser a factor "stringing" is to your patterns, or to getting clean kills. :hmm: :thumbsup:

 

[jeffdrown]

I agree that 40 yards or less is best in my 20 gauge double BP Shotgun(max. hunting range)! 30 better !

As with my primitive bowhunting (one piece wood selfbow and stone pointed wood arrow..since 1968) I use woodsmanship above equipment.

So ,I want the best pattern in my 20 gauge BP Double that will put a even spread ..but with just enough pellets to kill and not rip up that tasty meat too much

I appreciate all your words and info.

 

[jeffdrown]

Ha ..Guys ! I made a few changes to the cup. I added a CIRCLEFLY 28 ga. overshot card to the inside of cup. It fits perfect. I also have 4 grooves 3/4 down sides to open up pattern.

I have a 100 gr fixed powder measure that with the pillow Tickling cloth formes the cup perfect for my 20 gauge double barrels.

 

[dbutch]

Your form looks great..
1.how does the cloth wad hold up to lube?..
2.when do you lube them..how do they hold up after lubing..say on a hunting trip ?
3.Does the super glue stay attached?...
4.Are you slitting these because they do not open up and slug? .......Thanks....dan