need beginner bullet advice

[troyandmarsha]

i'm fixing up an old 50 cal. CVA flintlock.

i'm going to use American Pioneer Powder because of the ease of shooting it many times to find the right load and bullet without having to clean it as often.

my question is this -- i notice that there are many different kinds of ammo balls: conicals, round ball, hollow point, maxi balls, sabots, polymer tips and such. is there any where on the internet that discusses the differences between them in regards to advantages & disadvantages. is there any advice in regards to which grain of bullet to use? my goal is to deer hunt with it on open sights and target shoot with my daughters.

 

[amccall]

Troy, have you shot a flintlock with American Pioneer Powder? Flintlocks are fussy and bp is very consistant with flintlocks. The other thing is what is your twist of your barrel? that will help decide either ball or bullet.

 

[troyandmarsha]

haven't shot it with American Pioneer yet.

guess i'll have to ask Pioneer for input on that.

don't know what the twist rate is. will have to find out
and post later.

thanks for the input.

any website referrals that explain the different bullets and weights/grains purposes?

 

[Ivery Keys]

Troy,
If this is one of the old Kentucky type rifles, full stock but in two pieces, I think the rate of twist was pretty slow, but will have to look at the books to help memory. I agree that BP will probably perform better, and so will round balls. The new BPs are better than what we had even 20 years ago and you should be able to get a 10 or 20 shot string in without having to wipe the bore.

More to come,

Ivery

 

[cayugad]

You might have some real ignition problems with American Pioneer Powder in a flintlock. It has a much higer flash point then real Black Powder. I think you're headed for headaches if you go that route. Stick withSwiss, Grafs, or Goex 3f in the barrel and for the prime pan if you want. The rifle will behave much better. I shoot Goex and have not had any problems.

As for a projectile, I would shoot roundball out of them because the older CVA rifles and almost any of them out at that time were made to shoot roundball. Of course we now have more modern twist rates in some and rifling debth but roundball will be the way I would start.

Take about 60 grains of Goex 3f and start there with a patched roundball (.490 diameter for .50 caliber). If it shoots good tight groups then increase the charge 5 grains and work your way up. Keep it under 90 grains of powder for the main charge and you should be fine.

Have fun shooting the rifle....

 

[shadyrest]

my old man has a cva kit gun from the early 70's its a 1 in 48 twist shoot rb's decent but is a dead opn gun with wither thompson 350 gr maxi's or hornady 385 gr great plains bullets, i can almost garuantee you that it will not shoot powerbelts or sabots well at all
---sam

 

[Rebel]

Being an Older CVA flinter, you might have problems even getting it to ignite Real BP. Some of their locks were not all that great at sparking. If it does spsrk well, i would suggest you use patched rd. balls in it. They are plenty for deer in .50 cal. and a lot cheaper, so you can practice more. If it is the Old Kentucky style rifle, i think they had a 1-66" twist, which is good with rd. balls. Good luck.

 

my old man has a cva kit gun from the early 70's its a 1 in 48 twist shoot rb's decent but is a dead opn gun with wither thompson 350 gr maxi's or hornady 385 gr great plains bullets, i can almost garuantee you that it will not shoot powerbelts or sabots well at all
---sam

I must question the 1:48 twist in the 1970's CVA,.... are you absolutely sure it's not a slower twist?????

YMHS
rollingb

 

[troyandmarsha]

thanks guys for the round ball input.

i'm still waiting from CVA to respond to my email
about the rate of twist. i gave them the serial #
but no response yet.

btw: it's a hawken type rifle

 

[troyandmarsha]

i just called CVA.

it's a 1 in 48 twist.

 

[Claude Mathis]

i just called CVA.

it's a 1 in 48 twist.

Roundball with genuine black powder. :imo:

 

[Rat]

Yes in a flinter anything but black powder will give you some headaches, and at best kind of reduce the fun of flinting with miss-fires and hang-firs, and generally slow ignition.

Swiss black powder burns just about as clean as 777, which is a clean burning substitue powder like Pioneer.

If you experiment with different lubes, you'll find some that will allow many repeat shots.

A wonder wad under the ball will also reduce fouling.

You CAN have the best of both worlds, the fast reliable ignition of black powder, and the minimum of fouling of the phoney-baloney powders. (no offense to anyone, these are great powders for cartridge guns)

Your daughters will definately appreciate it if you use a round ball instead of a heavy slug. Less recoil. And, a RB will certainly drop any deer...some may argue faster than a slug.

A somewhat/realitively loose fitting ball patch combination, that still produces good accuracy will also allow more repeat shots without cleaning.

Rat

 

[Rebel]

Aw heck Rat, now ya went and done it. Ya agreed with me on something. :: That a round ball will drop a deer better, and faster than a conical. That has been my experience. I shot deer with both .50 and .54 Buffalo Bullets and Ball-etts, and round balls, and the rd. balls did a better job every time.. :crackup: But lets not make a habit of this agreeing thing. To fun to argue about the benefits, and merits of using H2O to clean, as compared to the new fangled, over priced solvents you insist on using. ::

 

[Rat]

Nope don't worry Reb, I just threw something out about that Rubber Ducky thing on another thread to get you going...for some reason you came to mind as I was blowing that Rubber Ducky right out of the H20...once again!!

:blah:

I think the dynamics of the round-ball are still not understood, how they act more like a good quality, controlled expanding modern bullet, which generally gives a quicker kill over a solid non-expanding slug.

Rat

Save a fish...spare the H20.

 

[Rebel]

Yea, i saw your Rubber Ducky thread, but didn't fall for it this time. :: But i do believe that a rd. ball, of proper cal. is still the best killer on Thin skinned game. Now for thick skinned dangerous stuff, then a good hard conical might be in order. Watched a show on OLN the other night about Cape Buffalos. Saw one take 4 good hits from some .500 nitro something or other double cartridge rifle before going down. Something for the person that was thinking about hunting them with a flintlock to think about.

 

[Bob J]

Watched a show on OLN the other night about Cape Buffalos. Saw one take 4 good hits from some .500 nitro something or other double cartridge rifle before going down. Something for the person that was thinking about hunting them with a flintlock to think about.

:agree: Sure, hunt 'em with a flinter, even a flinter with a round ball. But have an experienced PH backing you up AND use something on the magnitude of an 8 bore!

 

A lot of those early guns had 1 in 66 twist. Easiest way is to run a wet patch down the barrel. Mark your ramrod with a small line across the ramrod, and create a T by marking where the center of the top flat or front sight is. Then pull the rod out slowly, until the line by the sight has moved 1/4 turn. Now measure the distance from the end of the barrel to the cross mark, and multiply that distance by 4. That will give you the rate of twist. If the distance was 12" times 4 is 48 thus 1 in 48 twist. 16 1/2 " will give you 1 in 66 twist. and so on. Do this and you will be sure. Put a little oil on the patch, your barrel will thank you. A 50 cal. ball will take down just about any game here in the lower 48, if you stay within the gun's and your own limitations. Keep asking questions, and checking out the site. You will get all the answers you want, and some you never even thought to ask, and even some silly ones. (read that as Musketman, Rollin B, and even Me) :crackup: :m2c: :results: Bill P.S. On shooting the first time, a general rule is to use only as many grains of powder as the caliber is. In your case that would be 50 grains of ffg, or fffg powder. I would also recomend you start with a .490 round ball with a .015 patch. I would stick with this until you get the feel of the rifle, then you can start to experiment with loads. you can change ball size to say .495, patch thickness, and finally the amount of powder. I would work that up in 5 grain increments, trying five or ten shots at each step. I would not recomment going much higher that 85 grains. Take your time and see what she likes. Like they say in some of those other weird sports, "find the sweet spot". Last of all use real black powder since it is a flintrocklock. :results:

 

[troyandmarsha]

thanks guys. that helps alot.

my father in law doesn't think i'll get ole betsy to
shoot. it quit working for him and his sons in the 80's.

i took it apart. cleaned it out. had a muzzle loader guy
from the club that builds muzzleloaders fix the lock and
triggers -- it sparks now. i'll give the twist measuring
a try and have have him double check the rate of twist for
me. now i just need to head to the range.

i'm still buying ML supplies. haven't bought powder yet or
ammo. will use the recommendations on the ammo and patch
for RB.

 

[troyandmarsha]

I DID IT!

finally got time to shoot the CVA 50cal last sunday
shot it about 10 times...it was great! i learned that
i won't be using a 50cal wire brush to clean it out b/t
shots anymore! i almost didn't get the thing out...
the guy i went with has a nylon 45cal.size brush that
stays on the rod it's with for in b/t shots...that did
the trick. i wiped out the barrel a couple times during
the 10 shots with patches and bore cleaner.

i guessed at 70 grains of goex, 4f flash powder with RB
and prelubed patches. i ended up with 3 shots inside of
a 1.5" hole...not consecutively...it was out of 10 shots.
the 3 shot group was an inch to the left and .5 inch low
from center mark.

man it was GREAT FUN !!!!

:thumbsup:
:m2c:
:yakyak:
:RO:

 

[roundball]

".....i learned that i won't be using a 50cal wire brush to clean it out b/t shots anymore! i almost didn't get the thing out...

Some tips about brushes...

If you get a new tight brush hung up down bore, do not use gorilla strength trying to jerk it back out...the brush may separate from the ramrod attachment and it'll be stuck downbore.

Instead, just attach a T-handle to the top of the ramrod, and gently rotate the ramrod (ie: clockwise) while gently pulling up on it...the rotation will twist/swirl the brush bristles, and they'll release their grip on the bore walls allowing you to pull it slide it back out easily;

Plus, after a few uses of a new brush, the sharp new points on the tips will loose their sharpness and no longer hang up like that;

There are basically two designs for how brushes are attached to their threaded end:
A) they are either "crimped" into a piece of metal that has threads on it;
B) or, the main twisted core wire of the brush goes down through and passed through an eye in the threaded section.

The latter is much stronger and the least likely to pull loose down bore if it gets hung up.