Need help picking a first rifle

[pilot]

The School of YouTube is going to be your next stop. There are thousands of videos available to you. Just search on YouTube your questions and you will find a great education.

 

[longcruise]

@Daryl Crawford makes some very good suggestions. @chiphasnoteeth I didn't realize how deep is your quandary until I read your post above.

The reason it's hard to find BP for sale is because of the strict storage requirements due to it's explosive nature. The subs get around that.

All of your questions and uncertainty can be solved by presenting yourself to a ml club. It may seem like there is none near you but they appeal to a very small community within the community and are not easily noticed. Find one and make contact. At my club members will be elbowing others out of the way to be the one to help. I find that to be the way of ml people all across the country.

I see that you are in Virginia. If you start another topic specifically appealing for help finding shooters or clubs in your general area some help will probably appear.

 

[COTNTOP]

Things magically appear for newbies just starting out. Keep reading and asking questions because you never know just what will appear out of nowhere. I started out with percussion and now am about break the ice with a Kibler Rifle. Always remember that nothing is a waste when investing in firearms, GOOD LUCK.

 

[morehops52]

You asked about a "Hawken" rifle. That was a basic style of rifle reminiscent of the beaver trapper /frontier days that was produced by most BP gun makers since the 1970's (?). Generally characterized as a half-stock rifle with a barrel length in the 28-30" range in 45, 50 ,or 54 cal. Most wear brass furniture and have a patch box and a very curved butt plate. Each maker had their own specs so my info is generalistic.
I recommended a Thompson Center (T/C) as this brand has been around long enough to have MANY used guns on the market and is generally considered to be of higher quality that many other mass-produced BP arms. Lyman/1investarms have a good reputation here also. CVA and Traditions are generally considered a step down in quality for various reasons and many will disagree with me on that. In buying a used rifle the primary thing to look for is a bright/ no rust bore. Everything else is fixable but as mentioned before, getting one from a known forum user puts the odds a little more in your favor. No wants wants a bad reputation from selling a piece of junk.
You are in a dilemma as to flint vs. percussion. I started with caps as it just seemed easier that the learning curve my flinty friends were having. This was in the 1970's and no internet. While there is a little more to learn about flintlocks, there is no doubt they are fun to shoot. Black powder is available as are caps. Check with every GOOD gun shop within 30 miles of you. When you find BP they will probably have caps too. If you can only find BP substitutes then you are a percussion guy.
Keep one thing in mind: In 10 years from now when someone asks you "Do you shoot flint or percussion?" your answer is likely to be "... Well my FIRST black powder rifle was a flintlock..." Good luck and have fun!

 

[morehops52]

Addendum to my above post: Used T/C rifles can be had in the $350-500 range which is well within your budget. Also a T/C Renegade is sort of a smaller (26" barrel) and plainer (no patch box, blue furniture, not brass) brother to the Hawken. Reliable and accurate. I have both.

 

[54ball]

Three gun kits/parts sets immediately come to mind....

Jim Kibler’s “Woodsrunner”
https://kiblerslongrifles.com/products/woodsrunner-rifle-kit-pre-order
Dixie Pedersoli Brown Bess Carbine/Trade Gun
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index...ct_name/FR0600+Dixie+Brown+Bess+Trade+Gun+Kit Standard Brown Bess
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index...825+Pedersoli+2nd+Model+Brown+Bess+Musket+Kit
The Jim Chambers “Little Feller”.
https://www.flintlocks.com/RK-13.htm
The Woodsrunner and the Bess are pretty much disassembled and unfinished guns. They require some fine fitting and finish.

The Jim Chambers Little Fellow is a true parts set. This is one if the better parts sets and it requires building.
It’s a lot more involved.
If you are interested in gun building, real gun building, these are a great start.

These guns are the absolute best.
All have great locks.
A 3 types are historical.

 

[Adam in WI]

I  love shooting my flintlock. That being said, I'm glad I didn't start out on one. It's doubtful this will be your last black powder gun, so make it easy on yourself to start. Go with what you can find components for. Flints aren't exactly lining store shelves either.

 

[54ball]

Gun building is a mix of many many skills.
It requires a great deal of patience.
It requires a love of history and craftsmanship.
I dare say that building a longrifle or musket correctly is on of the greatest hands-on educational endeavors a person can do.

Week and weekend classes are offered at college campuses, event venues and Builder’s shops for aspiring builders.

I’m 51 years old.
How I wish I would have seriously pursued gun building as a teenager.

 

[LANEY REECE]

If you listen to these people, will help you out. But you pick out what works for you. Read all you can on the rifle you chose. There are some real knowledgeable people on this site, that will help you but is going to be what you like.

 

[azmntman]

Get a cap maker. They will never be hard to find then.

Locke geometery....The flint should be REAL close to touching the frizzen at half **** and at alike 57 degree angle (Somebody tell me, er him, what this is and how to master it please), Then you can do stuff like flipcthe flint bevel up/down and add a matchstick under it etc. Frizzen hardness is very important. If its not hardened properly it wont spark at all or very long. Old boss had a CVA Hawkin he gave to a guy as he could never get a spark. Before the internet days and now we could harden ourselves etc.

Get a cap maker and order a BUNCH of flints when you choose a rifle.

 

[springfield art]

As the title suggests, I'm currently looking for my first FLINTLOCK rifle. Specifically flintlock, I don't think percussion rifles would appeal to me, but perhaps I'm wrong. Anyhow, I've been browsing around the Muzzle-Loaders.com website, and I really like the Traditions Hawken Woodsman. I watched a couple review videos on YouTube and it seems like a solid first choice, but I'm absolutely not an expert. I have done research on muzzleloaders, and I think I understand how to maintain and operate a muzzleloader SAFELY. I also have adequate range space in my home with a backdrop and targets, and that seems like a good bit of fun but I might dabble in deerhunting eventually, so I would like to know if that rifle fits my needs. Additionally, is this a relatively safe thing to do? As in, will this gun blow up in my face while using proper charges (70-80gr 2F), fully seated ball, tight screws, etc.? I'm just a kid, at fourteen years of age and that's one of my mother's big, if not the biggest concern; if it's not safe, I can't have it. I have also done research on the laws in my state, and from what I understand, I, a minor, am not allowed to purchase powder or a rifle, but an adult (my mother) is, and I, a minor, am allowed to possess an antique firearm without license on private property. I've talked to my mother about it; she will agree to purchase these things under her name (with the money I've been saving for ages) so that I can use them. Just a question of logistics, I suppose.
Thanks!

First is never the Last!

 

[Commodore Swab]

As the title suggests, I'm currently looking for my first FLINTLOCK rifle. Specifically flintlock, I don't think percussion rifles would appeal to me, but perhaps I'm wrong. . .

If flintlocks interest you then you will be replacing a caplock with a flint in the future.

I've talked to my mother about it; she will agree to purchase these things under her name. . .

Best to just let her know regardless of muzzleloader found she should just plan on ordering black powder delivered. Much simpler.

Now having gotten that out of the way have you considered a flintlock fired cannon?

Odds are your first flintlock will not be your last. Odds are your first will be something more to go bang and have fun with so don't get too troubled trying to find the perfect gun. IF you can find a rendezvous near you once again Odds are you will find something good on a trade blanket and be able to talk with knowledgeable people who will help make sure its working while having a little fun.

Some things to consider, time period and what you personally like. There are centuries of flintlock development and a 1640's is very different than 1820's. Look for what interests you. India offers a Wide variety all are smooth not rifled (barrel can be sent off to be rifled). The locks can be problematic so factor in sending the lock out or buying from someone who sends them out functioning. The cheaper more modern (gun period) rifles can also have lock issues. For most every lock you will find someone here that says it works great and someone to say its junk. Remember this in general the wider the frizzen the more reliable the ignition.

Look around see what you like and feel free to ask.

 

[Marplot]

I would not want to buy a gun from an estate sale, nor pawnshop until you have experience to know the right gun. There are solid, trustworthy guns here!

There are plenty of people here who will sell you a good gun and help you shoot and maintain it. They probably have accoutrements that need to go with it. Balls, patches, powders, cleaning, etc. Many have "extras" laying around and would sell at a nominal expense. Explain your newbie status and they will go out of their way to help.

Also I would suggest that you make a post like "Need muzzleloader mentor (state your home area)" I cannot urge to find a mentor. As someone here mentioned there are a lot of "old" guys who are delighted in helping you and probably free.

So, bottom line: Find a mentor, online but hands on is best. Gets some experience talking with people here, and then start to buy.

 

[TexiKan]

After my .45 cal. was stolen, I heard all kinds of advice on what I needed to get and it seemed the trend was for .50 - .58 at that time. Yes, this was years ago and it seems more and more shoot with those calibers. I am not a big person and the .45 was a good fit for me but I listened to all of the others and would up getting a .50 cal. First of all, I had not handled such a gun, manufacturer or caliber. Once done, it was far heavier than I would prefer but now I had to live with it. Evaluate what you intend to do with the rifle, too. Everybody urged me to get the bigger caliber because of hunting deer and the like. I haven't done it yet and that was about 40 years ago. If you have the opportunity, which is harder to do, try holding one you like and the preferred caliber. It makes a huge difference. I have know some who have ordered rifles only to rarely or never use them because of weight, length, or length of pull. What works for some does not always work for others! You will find that with loading, cleaning and materials. Like many of us, we start with a particular rifle and determine if we want to move to something different. Remember, what works for you since advice is free but you will be paying for the end product.

 

[Hammond79]

First off you are in the right place for sure. Learn from these resources.

Starting off with a flint is fine Boone and Crockett both started off with flintlock and did just fine. If it's your first firearm I recommend getting a .22 rifle as well... work on the fundamentals with both.

Take a hunter's education class as some have recommended above.

Use only real black, get knapped flints from somewhere like Track of the Wolf.

I'd recommend a .50 for ease of finding components etc. And it's a good starting caliber for deer too.

Good luck! I look forward to hearing about your journey.

 

[kansas_volunteer]

Things magically appear for newbies just starting out. Keep reading and asking questions because you never know just what will appear out of nowhere. I started out with percussion and now am about break the ice with a Kibler Rifle. Always remember that nothing is a waste when investing in firearms, GOOD LUCK

 

[LonestarShootR]

Gun building is a mix of many many skills.
It requires a great deal of patience.
It requires a love of history and craftsmanship.
I dare say that building a longrifle or musket correctly is on of the greatest hands-on educational endeavors a person can do.

Week and weekend classes are offered at college campuses, event venues and Builder’s shops for aspiring builders.

I’m 51 years old.
How I wish I would have seriously pursued gun building as a teenager.

Your responses here have peaked my interest in building myself a left handed flinter. I am new to the black powder world but have built modern rifles. I come from a metal, machining, wood working back ground and have a well equipped shop to build most anything. As popular as the Kibler kits are I don't think they offer LH models.i looked at Jim Chambers site and noticed that they offer an RK-4 Issac Haines left handed model. It looks to be around $1200 without any add ons. I'll be looking at that one in the near future. Whether a modern or traditional black powder gun they both take knowledge, time/patience, quality components to build. They are the same but different all at the same time.

 

[kansas_volunteer]

You have received much advice. Much of it I'd call intermediate level. Also, if I were a new bee reading it I'd be confused. Somebody needs to write a long post in simple words and sentences explaining step by step the art of the flintlock. Boone (an in-law of mine) and Crocket may have found flintlocks good enough, but they had no choice. They also had knowledgeable mentors, like dads, older brothers, uncles and neighbors to teach them.

You do have a choice, either flint or percussion. Flintlocks are rightly called flinchlocks. You can easily develope a flinch with all that fire and smoke right in your face. A cap lock likely won't cause such a flinch. A flinch will ruin you as a shooter; even as a machine gun shooter. I advise starting with a percussion and developing good shooting and loading skills first.

Start with an assembled rifle, not a musket. Get something like a Thompson Center or Investarms Hawken or one of the many copies. These rifles are called Hawkens, but aren't true Hawkens in the strictest sense.

Caps can usually be found at Graf and Son or MidwayUSA. I buy 1,000 at a time. I have a thousand each of #11 and #10 that weren't hard to find online. Likewise, get real black powder. Easy to buy online. Buy several pounds at a time to defray the hazmat fee. Some dealers will cover the fee themselves, saving you money.

 

[54ball]

You have received much advice. Much of it I'd call intermediate level. Also, if I were a new bee reading it I'd be confused. Somebody needs to write a long post in simple words and sentences explaining step by step the art of the flintlock. Boone (an in-law of mine) and Crocket may have found flintlocks good enough, but they had no choice. They also had knowledgeable mentors, like dads, older brothers, uncles and neighbors to teach them.

You do have a choice, either flint or percussion. Flintlocks are rightly called flinchlocks. You can easily develope a flinch with all that fire and smoke right in your face. A cap lock likely won't cause such a flinch. A flinch will ruin you as a shooter; even as a machine gun shooter. I advise starting with a percussion and developing good shooting and loading skills first.

Start with an assembled rifle, not a musket. Get something like a Thompson Center or Investarms Hawken or one of the many copies. These rifles are called Hawkens, but aren't true Hawkens in the strictest sense.

Caps can usually be found at Graf and Son or MidwayUSA. I buy 1,000 at a time. I have a thousand each of #11 and #10 that weren't hard to find online. Likewise, get real black powder. Easy to buy online. Buy several pounds at a time to defray the hazmat fee. Some dealers will cover the fee themselves, saving you money.

I get what you mean but I disagree about modern “Hawkens”.
TC.....
The truth is they are absolutely miserable in stock shape. They are made for a scope.
If you want to develop a flinch,.....
Shoot a Renegade with 90 grains and a maxi ball. Flint or percussion it does not matter. That joker is going to thump you.

TC flintlocks....
Mediocre at best. They were good in their day much better than the CVA Maslin flintlocks but the CVAs were horrible. Functional but horrible.
Now the TC flintlock is an orphan. It might as well be Goulcher from 1839.
Used and abused.......
TCs are getting old and many look good but have bores like sewer pipes. Part of that was marketing. Namely Pyrodex marketing.

Traditions......
Jukar and CVA still live.
They are better than nothing.
That are way overpriced for what they are.
A basic Traditions offering is 1/2 or 3/4 of the way to a Woodsrunner or Bess kit.

In a lot of ways, a Traditions Kentucky kit is harder than building from a blank. It’s quicker, but even a seasoned builder will have the same struggles a novice would.
Sometimes they do not want to go together correctly.

Ivestarms/Lyman/Great Plains/Gemmer/Bridger/ whatever they are this week.....
Great Guns. I love them.......
In percussion
In flintlock.... nope.

L&R replacement locks for TC and others.....
Yep, let’s replace an old mediocre lock with a brand new mediocre lock.

Used guns.......namely Longrifles
You might get lucky
You might get a piece of junk poorly built. The catch 22 is you really have to be experienced to judge a “bargain”.
Many of these bargains are not.
There are some low cost builders who build junk at bargain prices.
When I think about these guys and their guns......
I puke in my mouth a little.

The ergonomics of 18th Century stock shapes are far far above the modern stuff.
For me, nothing feels as sweet as shouldering an American Longrifle or English gun like a Bess.

With care the Woodsrunner or Dixie/Pedersoli Bess can be assembled on the kitchen table.
There’s plenty of support for the Kibler. Jim has a slew of videos posted.

There’s an awesome history lesson with a Longrifle or Bess. It’s just not there with the TC and it’s clones unless you are into disco, bell bottoms and leisure suits. Yet they are.....
“Staying Ali——veeeeeee Ive. Staying Alive.

The Bess was designed for criminals, the dregs of society and street urchins to master.
With a loaded cartridge box, 2 opposing teeth and an intellect slightly above plant life a Bess can be mastered.
The Pedersoli Bess with it’s great lock would probably shoot with railroad gravel.

Here’s another thing.....
Lower priced flintlocks can set up the user for failure.
In the lower priced market....
Go percussion.

India Guns.......
I hear stamp collecting can be a great hobby. Bird watching can be rewarding as well.

For a person starting out.....
They need to start with the good stuff....
If at all possible.

 

[BP Addict]

Greetings and welcome!

Muzzleloaders have their own organization, the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association (NMLRA). They're Headquartered in Friendship, Indiana. There are seven Chapters in Virginia. The NMLRA Charter Club Program — The NMLRA

You might want to join. There's a monthly magazine filled with great information.
https://www.nmlra.org/store/membership
Lastly, they sell this book on Flintlocks. Flintlocks – A Practical Guide for Their Use and Appreciation — The NMLRA.

Good Luck!

Walt