Need Scattergun Advice, Please

[Wehrmacht]

Will some of you experienced smoothbore shotgun shooters please look at what I am doing and offer suggestions for improvement? I'm well experienced with PRB rifle marksmanship,but just starting out with fowling pieces.

I had a 16ga double made,copied from a 1810 original made in New York. Actually it was made as a 20ga full turkey choke on left and modified choke on right, but the barrels are way too heavy for wing shooting,so I had Ed Rayle make me a set of 16ga barrels with the left side cyl bore and the right side choked ten thousants. Yesterday for the first time I set up a patterning board and started working up a load, and here's where I need help,aid and assistance :winking:.....

My plan is to start with 60gr 2FG Goex and work up in 5gr increments,and I've already started.My range is 30 yards,carefully measured,30 inch circle. Here is my proceedure and partial results, so lets here it from all 'yall.

Proceedure: Various loads 2FG Goex
over powder card
1/2 of a cushion wad
overshot card (necessary?)
1 1/4 oz #6 shot (281 pellets + - a couple)
overshot card.
I'm using 1/2 of a cushion wad based on the recent Thread about cushion wads blowing a donut hole in the shot column.

First results.... 60 gr powder, average of three shots fired.
#1...178 pellets in 30" circle
#2...157 "
#3...171 "
The average is 169 pellets in the circle,or 60%.

...65 gr powder,
#1...176 pellets in 30" circle
#2...185 "
#3...173 "
The average is 178 pellets in the circle,or 63%.

Now,very simply, am I going at this project in the correct manner,or do I need to change anything. And, so far is this what you would expect from a cyl bore at 30 yards? Please make your comments.

 

[riarcher]

While going about it a bit differently than I would,,,, you seem to be on the right track.
63% is pretty good. When working the load, just keep changing only 1 thing at a time.
Caution though, if you go from your #6 to a #2 or BB the same load may not pattern as you'd expect.
Not sure if you're looking for the geese & ducks but if you are,, just check the load.
Are you experiencing any troubles with fouling between shots (without cleaning)? Just wondering.
Them 16's are a darn good all-purpose gage aren't they? They're my absolute favorite, BP or smokeless.

 

[musketman]

Remember, more shot than powder will work wonders for filling in holes...

 

[Dave K]

Sounds like you are on the right track to me. Try leaving out the overshot card that you are using over your cushion. It may not be needed and may change your pattern as well.

 

[paulvallandigham]

That overshot card you are using over the cushion wad only serves to provide a smooth, even push to the shot column, and insure the shot leaves the barrel all at the same time. Once you work up a best pattern load, try shooting the same load but omit the overshot card under the shot. If the pattern improves, leave it out of your loading practice. If the patterns get worse, use it! Just change only one thing at a time, and you will get there. I am very impressed that you are getting a 63 % pattern at 30 yds. Is that with the barrel that is choked, or with the open bore barrel? Or both?

I also have to agree with Riarcher. I personally like using #5 shot, but can't argue with those kinds of patterns with #6 shot if turkey is your target. Do you have a core pattern within that 30 inch circle- say 10 inches- where you have enough pellets to insure that 8-12 pellets will hit a turkey's head and neck out to 30 yds? If you change pellet size, don't expect the new pellet size to pattern the same. Especially if you go up to #2, #1, or BB, you will have to check the patterns for each of them, and make additional adjustments.

 

Yer going in the right direction, and I'm gonna guess that with a 16 ga. 75/80gr. is gonna be yer best performer, maybe even 85 grains. stick with changeing only one thing first, which you're doing. When you've got yer best load (repeatable at least 5 to 10 times) stick with that powder volume, and then modify the shot, or wadding, but only one at a time, to see if you get any more improvement. If ya got a turkey target, stick it on yer board and see what you get. I would also do the ole penetration test of a steel canned vegtable can at say 25 yards. If the pellets go thru, thats plenty penetration. Bill

 

[AZ-Robert]

And, so far is this what you would expect from a cyl bore at 30 yards? Please make your comments.

Yep - in fact it is looking pretty good. Looking at expected results in a 30" circle at the usual range of 40 yards with an IMPROVED Cylinder you would be counting 50% - 57% (standards vary)... or about 40% with a cylinder... and you are getting 60% - 63% at 30 yards. Not too shabby :thumbsup:

Chuck Hawks writes mostly for centerfires, but he has lots of good shotgun related info you might find interesting, and he just did a large update on his site. Here is the page that deals with chokes:
[url] http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_chokes.htm[/url]

...and here is the link to the shotgun page:
[url] http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2c.shotguns.htm[/url]

 

[BS]

Will some of you experienced smoothbore shotgun shooters please look at what I am doing and offer suggestions for improvement? I'm well experienced with PRB rifle marksmanship,but just starting out with fowling pieces.

I had a 16ga double made,copied from a 1810 original made in New York. Actually it was made as a 20ga full turkey choke on left and modified choke on right, but the barrels are way too heavy for wing shooting,so I had Ed Rayle make me a set of 16ga barrels with the left side cyl bore and the right side choked ten thousants. Yesterday for the first time I set up a patterning board and started working up a load, and here's where I need help,aid and assistance :winking:.....

My plan is to start with 60gr 2FG Goex and work up in 5gr increments,and I've already started.My range is 30 yards,carefully measured,30 inch circle. Here is my proceedure and partial results, so lets here it from all 'yall.

Proceedure: Various loads 2FG Goex
over powder card
1/2 of a cushion wad
overshot card (necessary?)
1 1/4 oz #6 shot (281 pellets + - a couple)
overshot card.
I'm using 1/2 of a cushion wad based on the recent Thread about cushion wads blowing a donut hole in the shot column.

First results.... 60 gr powder, average of three shots fired.
#1...178 pellets in 30" circle
#2...157 "
#3...171 "
The average is 169 pellets in the circle,or 60%.

...65 gr powder,
#1...176 pellets in 30" circle
#2...185 "
#3...173 "
The average is 178 pellets in the circle,or 63%.

Now,very simply, am I going at this project in the correct manner,or do I need to change anything. And, so far is this what you would expect from a cyl bore at 30 yards? Please make your comments.

In my quests for better patterns, I have found that if you cut the lubed fiber wad nearly in half, it seamed to help. Also at 30 and under yards, I would use #7.1/2 Hard Shot. In a cylinder bore, More is Better!

 

[Wehrmacht]

OK, here's the latest with 70 and 75gr 2f. But first,THANKS to all who have helped me out on this project.I'm totally inexperienced with shotguns. Thanks also for the websites.I'll go over these very soon.

My double has a cyl bore on the left,and the right barrel is choked ten thousants. I've started with the left or cyl bore for this session,and once you all tell me I've about arrived with the cyl bore,then I'll repeat the process with the choked barrel. And oh yea....I'm having a New England Fowler being built right now,so I'm getting into this thing SERIOUSLY :haha: (The new fowler will have a 51 inch barrel(Ed Rayle),cherry stock (Wayne Dunlap) and a Jim Chambers Early Colonial Virginia lock.David Dodds is building it.

Today I shot 70 & 75gr 2f,and here's what I get.

70gr 2f.....Target #1-194 pellets
Target #2-167 pellets
Target #3-161 pellets
X= 174 pellets,or 62%

75gr 2f.....Target #1-175 pellets
Target #2-155 pellets
Target #3-167 pellets
X= 166 pellets,or 59%

I'm not going through the trouble of running a statistical analysis on this because just looking at it it's evident that there is very little significant difference percentage wise with any of this. 60%,63%,62% and 59%.

I have noticed this however....as the powder charge has increased,the overall percentage of the pellets in the 30 inch circle has shifted to the left. No great holes created on the right side,but a noticable increase in the pellets shifting to the left. Is this to be expected? Is it a reaction to recoil or is it mechanical with the piece? (I'm shooting off a bench like you would with a rifle,muzzle resting in a sandbag,buttplate to my arm). Is this something that you just incorporate with sighting ie a little Kentucky Windage compensation when you are wing shooting?

Almost all of these charges fired would have put 8-10 or so pellets into a turkey head and neck kill zone.I've got some of those black stick-down turkey head/neck targets which show yellow where a pellet hits.I'll use some of these to make sure of what I'm saying :winking:.

Now, a question about changing shot size....
If I go up to 7 1/2,or down to 5's,is this enough of a change in size to cause a change in patterns? Do I need to pattern for every shot size I may be using? I'll most likely go with 5's for turkeys,but I like to go out to the Dakotas pheasant hunting,too,and I've used 6's for that.I don't mess with waterfowl,but being as that's big in my area I may start shooting ducks,too.What about making a mix of about equal weights of 5's,6's,7 1/2's and 9's? To me this sounds logical,but I'm inexperienced--will a mix like this be effective?

And what about the materials shot are made out of?
What I have on hand is chilled lead shot,and I don't think there is any danger to the barrel with this....hope I'm right-am I? The LGS has 7 1/2's of MAGNUM shot in 25lb bags.Is it OK to use Magnum shot in a muzzleloader barrel?

I plan to go ahead and go up to 80 and 85gr 2f to see what will show up at these charges since that was suggested as a possible sweet spot. It'll be a couple of days before I can,however.

Please let me know what all yall think about this so far :hatsoff:.

 

Your Q about will changing shot size change the pattern? The answer is maybe. It will definately change pattern density. With a M/Ler you don't have quite the velocity of modern shotguns, so mass trumps speed. both 5's and 6's will kill both turkey and pheasant. It would kinda be overkill for grouse, and woodcock though. I personally would work up a load for pheasant, and turkey in 5"s, and a second load for bunny, squirel, grouse in 7 1/2's. The ole KISS (keep it simple simon) approach. Less to carry and think about. Bill

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Your idea of mixing shot sizes is a popular one but not a very good one. Your load needs to meet two requirements. #1-pattern density sufficient to hit the game with several pellets, say 3-5, depending on the game. #2- each and every one of those pellets must have sufficient penetration to break bones and reach vitals of the game intended at the range it shot. Your load needs to meet both of these requirements, one or the other is not good enough.
Thus we use small shot, 7 1/2 or 8, to gain pattern density for small birds like doves and quail. Larger shot like #4's provide penetration for bigger and tougher game like ducks and jack rabbits and maintain penetration out to 50 yards or more.
Now if we mix two sizes of shot we have only half a load of the proper size. Say we mix 4's and 8's in a 1 1/2 ounce load. Pull down on a goose and the 8's don't count at all since they won't penetrate and you have only 3/4 ounce, about 100 pellets of #4's. That's a .410 load and I think you'll agree the 410 is no goose gun. If the target happens to be a dove, then the 4's do count since they will surely penetrate but they reduce your pattern density of your 1 1/2 ounce load to about the same as 1 ounce of straight #8 shot.
If you're looking for a compromise all purpose load you'd do better with a straight load of #6 shot. 6's will drop the tough birds out to 30, maybe 35 yards while still delivering a pattern that a dove or quail can't slip through at the same distance. That is my choice to load for a hunt where I don't know what may jump up. :thumbsup:

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Forgot to reply to your question about the pattern shift. You are right about recoil. Side by side barrels are aligned (or should be) to converge since the right barrel kicks out to the right and the left barrel to the left. As you increase velocity the shot gets out of the barrel sooner, so the right barrel shoots less to the right than it had done with the slower load. You'll likely find that with a ball over a stiff powder charge your barrels will crossfire, right barrel going left and left barrel going right.
With shot loads appropriate to the 16 gauge you probably won't find enough difference to matter. If you have a 36" killing pattern who cares if it happens to center a few inches off the point of aim.
That bench rest can also effect point of impact. I'd rest my elbows only on the bench, not the gun.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Oh yeah, now about the magnum shot. Different makes use different words to describe their product. The "chilled shot" and the "magnum shot" may actually be exactly the same or the magnum shot may be a bit harder, which is good. Soft shot will deform more under the force of acceleration, may lead the bore, and deformed pellets fly out of the pattern. If the magnum shot is actually harder it will pattern better with less leading of the bore. Both types are mostly lead, with a small amount of antimony or other additives to increase hardness. Just avoid steel or some of the other "non-toxic" stuff and you and your gun will be fine.
Finding the load for a shotgun involves many factors but it sounds like you are going about it right. I applaud you for it, many folks just pick an arbitrary number for powder and shot, stuff it down and go a huntin. :grin:

 

[BS]

The main reason to use the smaller shot is pattern density.........You are shooting them in the head and neck, you don't need the extra penatraion of #5 or six shot. You need a dense pattern.............and I have always thought that hard "magmun" shot breaks bones better than soft "chilled" shot. Soft shot tends to flatten and form around a bone before breaking it,[less penatration] the hard breaks and penatrates.........or something like that! :grin:

 

[paulvallandigham]

As the amount of powder is increased, you are subconsciously anticipating the greater recoil, and " Pushing" the trigger to the left, causing the pattern to shift to the left on paper. Try indexing your trigger finger on the trigger guard below the trigger, and keep the trigger finger in contact with the trigger guard as you slap or pull that trigger. ( we Squeeze the trigger on a rifle or pistol; we slap or pull fast the trigger on a shotgun. ) If you keep that side of your triggerfinger in contact with the triggerguard, you won't be likely to push the trigger.

Paul

 

[rudy parnell]

Ok,I am not exceedingly fluent working with the Forum and the various Search functions. I do remember that Musketman posted a "functional diagram" of the recommended load proceedure. I hope I remember it well and I think that the "overshot" card goes over the shot....that is to say befor the cushion wad....I have found that the cushion wad is very helpful and will boost velosity which translates to more killing power. Finally, I remember that REBEL glues the overshot card directly to the cushion wad. Hope this is helpful. Good luck and I must say, that I am a bit jealous that you have such a fine gun. :winking:

 

[Wehrmacht]

Again,THANKS to all for the excellent advise and suggestions! I have taken due notice of the council you all have offered,and will govern myself accordingly :winking:.

I'll post more of my results later next week. Went by the LGS today and bought another 25 pounds each of #6's and #7 1/2's.

Unfortunately the water temperature in the local Gulf coastal area is approaching 70 degrees,and the trout have moved out of the creeks and onto the flats and the Spanish Mackrel have moved in. Therefore,I am forced to temporarily put my little double aside for a few days and go fishing . I don't know how much longer I can tolerate this semi-retirement :shocked2:.