Negativity towards Traditions guns

[FishDFly]

And that is bizarre in its own way. After all, back when cap guns were the latest thing, wouldn’t the situation have been the other way around?

I read a lot because I dislike TV now.

In my reading the Indians preferred flintlocks when percussion guns came along. They could always find or trade for flints, where they were dependent on the white traders to get caps.

 

[Tumbledown]

The OP is right. Just look at the responses when someone asks about getting a Traditions kit as a first gun. Invariably one or several will call them junk and tell him to save for a gun that costs 4x the price. They offer nothing constructive and certainly don't contribute to encouraging beginners.

They are a small minority, but sometimes it only takes one snob to kill someone's enthusiasm.

 

[FishDFly]

From reading here a long time, CVA and Traditions rifles have always have had a following when it comes to accuracy.

It seems folks have had more trouble with getting their T/C's to shoot accurately.

 

[Rudall]

...the Indians preferred flintlocks when percussion guns came along. They could always find or trade for flints, where they were dependent on the white traders to get caps.

Good point. I was thinking more of the moneyed gent who would feel superior with his new percussion rifle. Just like some kids always want the latest sneakers. Or iPhone.

 

[FishDFly]

"Invariably one or several will call them junk and tell him to save for a gun that costs 4x the price. They offer nothing constructive and certainly don't contribute to encouraging beginners."

There was a reason for that,

In some of the early kits, they were composed of junk.

When the folks on the line building rifles would have parts that were inferior or would not fit they would pitch them. These parts often would end up in kits. This was really true in the 1970's. I have a couple that fit this description. The barrels looked like I rifled them in a barn. Looks at times were almost none functioning.

 

[Smokepole55]

I don’t for one have to deal with snobbery living here in Eastern Oregon. I own Pedersoli’s, and Traditions, and one custom smoothie. Don’t really care about what you own or shoot or even your social status. I hunt by myself and the area I live in is vary rural. I love the forums and try to glean as much knowledge as I can from them trying to improve my shooting and the functionality of my smokepoles. I for one haven’t introduced myself but occasionally post a message. I believe that 99% of the members on this site are good and decent people engaged in the promotion of the sport and our heritage. If you look down your nose at me because of what I shoot or own you need to grow up. Nuff said..

 

[toot]

let's just enjoy what we have got in the way of BLACK POWDER GUNS, flint or percussion and no matter what make! we all need to get along, bickering and belittling another one / member, shows' a sense of insecurity. I too will probellay get beat up for my post? oh well. JMHO.

 

[User_Dan]

So I came from the unmentionable gun world and I bought a Traditions Kentucky kit to assemble to keep me busy and save my relationship. Idle time allowed me to chase lots of women.

Built the Traditions kit, now casting my 490 RBs and looking at a 1861 Springfield next and drooling over some of the fancy guns posted up on the forum here.

 

[Billy Boy]

Look guys, everyone cannot afford custom made guns, so please stop knocking people who own and post about their guns. I mean were supposed to be a brotherhood here, so let us all act like it accordingly.

Amen! Anyone whose first ever muzzleloader started at $2800 might be more enriched chatting with the political class...

 

[Bob McBride]

I think if you went to a barbecue at a park and saw a guy with a $2000 grill/smoker setup on wheels one could easily roll their eyes and think ‘Snob. My $10 grill works just as good.” but the guy likely lives in a trailer and drives a Yugo and barbecuing is just his thing. Get in a conversation with him and he’s likely to tell you exactly why your 12” ‘Craftsman on the Go’ is inferior if you want your beer can chicken to turn out just right. Like it or not. Is he a barbecue snob? Yep. Good for him. I want to go to his house to eat.

 

[LuVerne Schumann]

The OP is right. Just look at the responses when someone asks about getting a Traditions kit as a first gun. Invariably one or several will call them junk and tell him to save for a gun that costs 4x the price. They offer nothing constructive and certainly don't contribute to encouraging beginners.

They are a small minority, but sometimes it only takes one snob to kill someone's enthusiasm.

And you just inadvertantly made my point.

Most of what you say is hyperbole.

I've seen few people call traditions "junk". And the great majority of kits out there are not "4x the price".

A Traditions Kentucky rifle kit is $310 + postage at its cheapest. For $600, you can get a Tennessee Valley Manufacturing kit delivered to your house which will be potentially a better rifle, in nearly every way. (Provided you, as a builder, hold up your end)

This creates a marginal utility trap. The cheap, non-historical correct kits are becoming only marginally cheaper than better quality, and more historically correct kits.

Same thing with the apocryphal "$3000 custom gun." Anyone with money can buy a $900 - $1500 custom gun every day of the week that is AMAZING both to look at and shoot.

I see far more occasions of poor mouthing and justifying commercial guns (and if they were so great, why would anyone need to defend them) than of this so-called snobbery. If anything, I see people posting pictures of utter garbage guns and everyone tip toeing around it, trying to be polite, than anything.

 

[smo]

In reality it seems as if it really comes down too the "Nut behind the Butt".....
From my experience most M/L guns, will out shoot the Shooter.
Finding the right combination between the two is the answer.

I see nothing wrong with any ones choice of Makers or Builders.
Percussion or Flint, TC or Traditions, Kibler or Chambers.
Most will shoot where they're pointed....

 

[Tumbledown]

And you just inadvertantly made my point.

Most of what you say is hyperbole.

I've seen few people call traditions "junk". And the great majority of kits out there are not "4x the price".

A Traditions Kentucky rifle kit is $310 + postage at its cheapest. For $600, you can get a Tennessee Valley Manufacturing kit delivered to your house which will be potentially a better rifle, in nearly every way. (Provided you, as a builder, hold up your end)

This creates a marginal utility trap. The cheap, non-historical correct kits are becoming only marginally cheaper than better quality, and more historically correct kits.

Same thing with the apocryphal "$3000 custom gun." Anyone with money can buy a $900 - $1500 custom gun every day of the week that is AMAZING both to look at and shoot.

I see far more occasions of poor mouthing and justifying commercial guns (and if they were so great, why would anyone need to defend them) than of this so-called snobbery. If anything, I see people posting pictures of utter garbage guns and everyone tip toeing around it, trying to be polite, than anything.

Show me where one can get a new custom gun for $900-$1500. Can't even finish and flip a Kibler for that.

My understanding is the TVM and similar kits are well above anything to be recommended to a beginner. Lots of finish work. For a true beginner wanting a kit, Kibler is raved about but is also out of range for many...like 4x the price. So no, it's not hyperbole.


If Kibler gets his kits down to $6-700, THEN you have a point.

 

[sawyer04]

It seems folks have had more trouble with getting their T/C's to shoot accurately.
[/QUOTE]


Along the later years Thompson Center had an accuracy problem and some were just cast into the closet and forgot about. Not being exposed to an abundance of these rifles I can't say for sure if they all were exposed to the problem. Just before I retired from the shop a gentleman showed up with one of these old closet rifles. Just figured he had botched the sights and it wouldn't be much of a repair. Not so, upon close examination the factory had put the breech end at the muzzle. It was a solid serial number, no evidence of being a kit gun. Run out wasn't real bad, but enough to throw the ball 11/2" at 25 yards. Later I have heard of problem with quality control, and several unsatisfied customers, but never about run out on the muzzle end. At the time I thought it was just a fluke, but maybe not. Yes, the rifle was repaired : everything had to be shortened. I would not suggest this for the faint of heart, I was retiring and just wanted a tinker job.

 

[MAC1967]

I think we go through stages, or many of us do . . . I started with a Traditions Crocket and later a Lyman GPR. Both were beautiful rifles, though I had problems with the Crockett. As I got more into ML's and built a Chambers and TVM kit, I learned more about historic rifles and my tastes changed. Yet, what I think many "snobs" forget is that those of us who prefer higher end custom rifles, are standing on the shoulders of the very wide paths created by CVA, Traditions, TC etc in the 70's & 80's, when the TC Hawken in particular, was used in many movies and greatly expanded our sport. (I still have my GPR and will never sell it.) I respect CVA & Traditions and all that they do for our sport.

My only snob comment is that I wish Traditions KY rifle was not a two piece stock. Yet, their Shanandoah is one no snob can legitimately knock unless they just want to be a jerk. . . same for Pedersolis.

 

[pondoro]

My philosophy on all of this? Ya never put down another’s gun.

<SNIP>

Respectfully, Cowboy

This is the right philosophy.

 

[Tanglefoot]

Well said, Mac. I once asked a Traditions rep why their KY rifle had a two piece stock ... like the CVA ... and she grinned and said, "Well, it IS a replica ... !" Factory muzzleloaders attracted a big percentage of todays ML shooters to our sport. So did the special hunting seasons when they finally opened up.

 

[Boatncamp]

There are a handful of people that post here that do show a snobbery towards the factory made guns and a preference towards custom made guns in their posts, which at times when reading them, I do find offensive but I try to take the posts with "a grain of salt".
Depending on my mood they can be enough to make me not want to continue with reading hear.

1st gun in 1975 was a TC Hawken in .5o (which I still have) it goes bang
Followed with various pistols that all go bang
Now have a total of 25 or so smoke makers that probably total over $10k
India made Fusil it goes bang
Japanese made Bess it goes bang
Italian made pistols, rifles etc they all go bang!
Would I trade a half dozen of them for one custom gun, no
About to start a Traditions flintlock kit for something to learn on and practice on
Will I attempt a custom gun myself in the future, yes, but only because I cannot find what I want

We all have what we can afford, what we are willing to spend our money on or what WE want.
It does not make the other choices wrong whether that is an inexpensive factory gun or a very high end custom gun
To those that think that their custom guns are the only way to go, please don't post that it is the ONLY way to go as it is not
You can offer reasons as to why it is the choice that YOU made.
There are very few custom guns that can be had for only a few dollars more than a factory gun.

Woody

 

[TNGhost]

I think if you went to a barbecue at a park and saw a guy with a $2000 grill/smoker setup on wheels one could easily roll their eyes and think ‘Snob. My $10 grill works just as good.” but the guy likely lives in a trailer and drives a Yugo and barbecuing is just his thing. Get in a conversation with him and he’s likely to tell you exactly why your 12” ‘Craftsman on the Go’ is inferior if you want your beer can chicken to turn out just right. Like it or not. Is he a barbecue snob? Yep. Good for him. I want to go to his house to eat.

If you are really a good cook, study and know what you are doing, you can turn out as good a BBQ with an inexpensive setup, or one you put together yourself with $100 worth of parts.

No need, only want in spending the money.

Same applies to the gun.

 

[Bob McBride]

If you are really a good cook, study and know what you are doing, you can turn out as good a BBQ with an inexpensive setup, or one you put together yourself with $100 worth of parts.

No need, only want in spending the money.

Same applies to the gun.

Respectfully, that thinking, though true in its basic sense, can be applied to anything at all (cars, clothes, houses) .....I can cook the same steak over a pile of coals on my concrete with a grate from my microwave and two cinder blocks as can be had in the finest restaurants..but do you want better slow cooking? Better use caste iron instead of plate. Want it to hold better heat and have more convection you better use a minimum of 1/4” iron. Want to cook two briskets and ribs at the same time for your big family on weekends? Plus burgers and dogs for the kids and chicken for your vegetarian niece? Want it all to be done at the same time? It better be big. Big? 1/4”? That’s heavy. Want to take it to the lake in the fall? Better be on wheels, or better yet a trailer if you go to the lake a lot. It’s not just a matter of money. It’s a matter of what you want to do and how well/easy you want to do it. The guy with the big BBQ setup may be a snob and just want to spend the money, or he may just do a lot of bbq-ing. And based on all the smoke I see at his house I bet he’s got every episode of Pitmasters DVRed.