New guy needs some guidance

[Blockhead]

Hi everyone, new guy from Colorado here. I've been an avid collector of US 20th century military firearms for years, but have never been interested in much of anything that predated the Springfield M1903 until....

In doing some family history, I ran across a reference of a relative who joined the US army during the Meican American War as a part of the Mormon Battalion. I've decided I'd like to obtain a firearm representative of the time. Based on some initial research, the battalion likely carried three types: the 1816 smoothbore flintlock musket, 1803 flintlock rifle, and the 1841 "Mississippi" percussion cap rifle.

I've never considered buying this type of rifle, real or repro. Does anyone have any recommendation for sources? I'm leaning toward the 1841 because it seems like a much simpler weapon system to use.

 

[hinamanra]

Hi everyone, new guy from Colorado here. I've been an avid collector of US 20th century military firearms for years, but have never been interested in much of anything that predated the Springfield M1903 until....

In doing some family history, I ran across a reference of a relative who joined the US army during the Meican American War as a part of the Mormon Battalion. I've decided I'd like to obtain a firearm representative of the time. Based on some initial research, the battalion likely carried three types: the 1816 smoothbore flintlock musket, 1803 flintlock rifle, and the 1841 "Mississippi" percussion cap rifle.

I've never considered buying this type of rifle, real or repro. Does anyone have any recommendation for sources? I'm leaning toward the 1841 because it seems like a much simpler weapon system to use.

I've always liked the U.S. Model 1803 rifle, also called the Harper's Ferry Model 1803.

 

[Treestalker]

From a quick internet search, the Mormon Battalion was issued weapons at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas under the direction of Lt. Co. James Allen, Battalion Commander. All surviving Battalion Model 1816 weapons at the LDS museum are Type ll stamped Harper's Ferry on their casehardened lockplates and dated 1827. This type was referred to as National Armory Brown, with all metal being browned except the lockplate and the sling swivel on the triggerguard. More information is available at the LDS Gunsite. I have no Idea how accurate this information is, but it's a start. The website claims some Model 1804 Harper's Ferry Rifles were issued to the Battalion. Good luck in your search, YMHS George.

 

[billraby]

http://www.therifleshoppe.com/catalog_pages/us_arms/(543).htm
http://www.therifleshoppe.com/catalog_pages/us_arms/(512).htm
http://www.therifleshoppe.com/catalog_pages/us_arms/(500_A_500_B_500_C).htm
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/GunKit.aspx/603/1/KIT-US-1803/List

All guns mentioned are available as kits. These are high quality and historically accurate. Nice part is that they turn into a new gun rather than an old one that you would not be willing to shoot. Problem is that they are more a box full of parts than an actual kit. No instructions included. Expect to spend 100+ hours on any one of these. It can take a rather long time to get any parts that are not in stock. I had a barrel on back order for 14 months once. You can hire someone else to build it for you, but the wait time for that is usually several years. Forget about percussion being easier to use. Flintlocks are no trouble at all once you figure them out.

 

[Blockhead]

Thanks for all the info. For those that recommended building a kit, would you consider this a better option than just buying a Pedersoli reproduction.

 

[Zonie]

There are two distinctly different kinds of kits.

There is the ones sold by the big factories or importers which are basically their production guns in a semi-finished condition. These usually don't require much other than doing a lot of sanding on the stock and applying the finish oils. A person can finish one of them in 15-30 hours depending on how much work they want to put into it.

Then, there are the kits sold by many small companies here in America like Track of the Wolf, Pecatonica River Longrifles and Muzzleloader Builder's Supply.
They are basically a rough shaped stock, several sand cast things left in the cast condition, a fully assembled lock without any screw holes to mount it, a assembled trigger, and other items all in a unfinished condition.

To assemble one of these a lot of wood needs to be removed from the stock to finish shaping it, all of the screw holes for holding in the lock and trigger assembly will need to be located, drilled and tapped, all of the rough castings will need to be filed, sanded and polished and pinned in place. The barrel underlugs will need to be installed and the pins that go thru them to hole the barrel into the barrel channel will need to be located, drilled and installed.
The butt plate and ramrod inlet thimble are perhaps some of the more trying pieces to install and it takes a lot of time to accomplish.
All in all, figure on spending at least 150 hours of work to make a rifle from one of these kits. (Working about 2 hours a day it has taken me over 4 months to finish some of the rifles I've built from Pecatonica River kits.)

Then there are the kits offered by Chambers and Kibler that sell kits for guns that are similar to the kits I just described except they have some of the more time consuming things almost finished. These usually cost a bit more.

TVM offers some of their longrifles in a "In the White" condition. These guns are fully assembled but the parts require finish sanding, bluing or browning done to the barrel and finish stains and oils applied. There is a long waiting list for the guns TVM offers so if one is in a hurry, forget it.

 

[Grenadier1758]

You could try Tip Curtis for an in-the-white rifle.

You have to tell about your wood and metal working experience and the tools that you have before I can be making kit recommendations.

The Kibler kit is a much better rifle than the Pedersoli.

 

[Sidney Smith]

You can create your own kit by purchasing parts piecemeal, then assemble as time and money permit. Example, you can order a stock from Pecatonia river, instruct them on just how much or how little you want inletted, then do any work you feel comfortable doing. Then when ready you can order a barrel or lock etc.

There are many options out there for the potential builder. You just have to evaluate your skill set, and your desires. Some people enjoy building a gun
from scratch. These guys usually have the skill and the time to do it. They enjoy the creation as much as the shooting. Others have some skills but maybe not as many tools or as much time so they take a different route. Then still are those who just want to shoot and have no desire to build but they have the money so they hire out.

Now in my case, I enjoy building but I don't have the skills yet to turn a tree into a gun so I buy precarved stocks but am inletting more and more with each build. One day I'll cut a tree down and a gun will emerge from it.

 

[billraby]

From Pedersoli the 1816 that have is a replica of a conversion done after the Mexican War. The 1841 is probably what you are looking for. Pedersoli makes good guns but one of the kits is going to be much higher quality if it is put together right. Kit is also going to be more historically correct, if it is done right. I have heard that the browning on Pedersoli is actually a cerakote finish. Not sure, but it seems likely since browning is very labor intensive and takes a rather long time to do.

One of the kits mentioned above is going to be the best option for the highest quality and most historically accurate gun. Problem is that it can take quite a while for all of the parts to come in and then you have to actually build it. It is not the sort of project that you can do over a few weekends. You also need to have a bunch of tools and a place to work. Since it seems that you do not have experience with the black powder guns the best way to go may be to get the 1841 from Pedersoli. If it something that you get into, then think about building the other from kits.

This should give you some idea of what it takes to build one.

 

[Blockhead]

I've assembled many guns (M1s, ARs, 10/22s), but those were all easy and actually required little to zero fitting or machining skills. I love the idea of building up one of these older rifles, but I also recognize that I do not have the skills or time, unfortunately.

 

[Blockhead]

TVM offers some of their longrifles in a "In the White" condition. These guns are fully assembled but the parts require finish sanding, bluing or browning done to the barrel and finish stains and oils applied. There is a long waiting list for the guns TVM offers so if one is in a hurry, forget it.

I like this idea, but I don't see any of the specific rifles I'm looking for on their list.

 

[Sidney Smith]

Big difference in assembling parts for an AR and a muzzle loader. I've done both. The former can be completed in about 3 hours using a few tools. The later may take 3 months usually longer using many more tools and test fitting filing finishing etc. There's really no comparing the two.

You may be best served with an in the white kit. This then only requires staining and finishing the wood and bluing or browning of the metal. All the fitting has already been done at the factory.

 

[Blockhead]

Big difference in assembling parts for an AR and a muzzle loader.

That was my point. I'm woefully under-skilled when it comes to doing the type of work a full kit build would take.

 

[Grenadier1758]

The 1803 Harper's Ferry rifles can be found in new production offerings from Pedersoli.

Sometimes your choices will turn up in offerings for sale in muzzle loading rifle classified sections.

It sounds as if you need to be prepared to be patient and search for a used gun of the configuration you want. Most likely gun for the Mormon Battalion would be the 1816 flint lock. Easiest to use would be the 1841 Mississippi.

 

[Pete G]

I'm woefully under-skilled when it comes to doing the type of work a full kit build would take.

You won't develop skills by sitting on the sideline.

 

[Blockhead]

You won't develop skills by sitting on the sideline.

Fair point, but if I described my issues merely trying to install some ceiling registers in my basement this week you'd better understand my handyman skills (or lack thereof).

 

[Zonie]

As Clint Eastwood said, "A man's got to know his limitations."

There are a lot of people who have problems doing manual things like putting stuff together. Some of them could learn how to put things together if they wanted to invest the time but there are also a few people who just can't get the knack of it. Nothing wrong with that if they recognize it before they mess up a project.
The ones that are more dangerous are the ones that don't know how to install a screw but think they know how to build or repair anything.

 

[Sidney Smith]

Beware of the mechanic with the pile of. " leftover parts"!

 

[Pete G]

...and then there are the ones who believe they can't do something so it becomes a self-forfilling prophecy. Most gunbuilding tasks are not difficult if undertaken with forethought and patience (and saying that you don't have patience is just an excuse; it can be cultivated by anyone).

 

[Blockhead]

Gents, I've got a lot of good info and advice here. Much appreciated. Has anyone had a Pedersoli "defarbed" by Lodgewood? Anyone else you'd recommend?