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DanChamberlain

45 Cal.
Joined
Jan 11, 2007
Messages
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I just finished speaking with a Mister Hoyt who makes custom barrels for muzzleloading and discussed a project that I think I'm going to go ahead with.

For this project, I intend to have him produce a .458 bore in my Lyman GPR's barrel which will allow me to shoot my cast bullets for my .45-70 on top of powder charges approximating the .45-70 to .45-100! He has done this conversion before and it is exceptionally accurate. I will also have another patched roundball barrel for it so it can be converted back and forth, depending on the type of shooting I'd like to do.

The profile of the Lyman GPR butt plate isn't meant for really heavy loads and I will probably spend more time shooting it at 60 grains than anything heavier.

My question is: I have little experience shooting conical bullets out of a muzzleloader. Will it be advisable to seat them with or without some gasket between the powder and bullet? I have precut cards for BPCR loads. Would that be what I should use if anything, or would someone recommend another avenue?

Dan
 
I'd investigate felt wads over the powder. Doubt you'll generate quite the pressures that a cartridge gun would, because of the open nipple. Is gas cutting your concern?
Moose
 
Pretty much. Don't want to suffer severe leading to the base of the bullet. Don't want to go with a gas check design either.

Dan
 
In my .451 target rifle, which is basically what you'll have, I use the felt Wonder Wads between powder & bullet. I did try vege fiber wads also but didn't get the same level of accuracy in my rifle as i did with the felt.....of course each rifle is an individual so it'd be worth a try. Will Hoyt be making the barrel with a .458" bore, or is it a .458" groove diameter like a .45 cartridge barrel? If it's the latter you'll need to size your .45/70 bullets down to .451" or .452" but that is no big deal. I use the Lyman 457121PH bullet & a similar custom one I had a mould made for, & I use a Lee .452" lead bullet sizing die that fits in my reloading press.
 
What an interesting concept. Please keep us informed as you progress through loads and results. I wouldn't mind going that path myself someday.
 
When you finish your gun, don't forget to buy LOTS of nipples.

The heavy slugs the .45-70 shoots will cause the nipples to burn out very rapidly.
The other option is to buy a Platinum lined nipple (last I heard they cost about $50) and these will burn out too if you do a lot of shooting.

zonie :)
 
Here's something else to think about. With those LONG bullets at or near bore size, they are going to be a woolly bugger to get started. On top of that, I bet they have a tendency to cant a little somewhere in the process. Gonna raise cobb with your accuracy, I suspect. That's one of the big reasons they make false muzzles.

I'd get back on the phone with Hoyt and discuss the issue of starting .458 or .459 bullets in that bore. Even conventional coning might not be enough. Lots of folks don't like TC's recessed muzzle system (can't remember what it's called), but this might be a case in which you would be glad you had it if you didn't go to the expense and trouble of a false muzzle.
 
Good replies all. This is going to be a hunting gun as opposed to a serious target arm. Someone on another forum raised the question of the GPR's breech plug being up to it as well. My aim is to stay with bullets in the 330 to 395 range purely for hunting purposes. So, I won't be shooting any of the 500 grain elongated missiles.

The discussion of what size bullet to us came up. Hoyt has done this conversion before and recommended bullets sized .457 for ease of starting, so evidently, the bore will be appropriate for the .45-70 cast bullets.

Heard about the platinum nipples and found a source. Yes, they are $50. I'm wondering what the Volunteer and Whitworth rifles use.

Will be talking to Bobby Hoyt again this morning if possible (he's hard to catch) and will raise a couple of these questions again. If the GPR breechplug is too soft, we'll come up with an alternative.

Dan
 
In my .451 Navy Arms 'Creedmoor Match' mentioned in earlier post I only use 65gns of Goex 2Fg with a 455gn bullet & don't get any undue wear on my standard stainless nipples. However, have certainly heard differently from the long-range shooters who are using 500gn+ bullets & heavier powder charges, then I would definately go with the platinum-lined nipples.
 
Thank you for your response. I intend to keep my powder charges below 100 grains and my bullet weights below 400. I'm thinking I shouldn't experience any more wear than anyone shooting a .50 caliber GPhunter with 1 in 28" twist. My aim is merely to replicate .45-70 black powder performance in the deer woods. If I can get 1800fps with a 300 to 350 grain cast lead bullet, I'll be there.

Dan
 
According to the Lyman Black Powder Handbook a .50 cal rifle with a 1:24 twist shooting a 370 grain Lyman Maxi had a MV of 1362 FPS when loaded over 100 grains of GOEX FFg.
I do not see any loads with a 370+ grain bullet reaching 1800 FPS.

Noting the same books velocities for the .45-70 cartridge, including the Sharps .45-70 I see velocities that I would expect to see. Typically these velocities are in the 1200 FPS range with bullets in the 390 grain area.

The only .45-70 cartridge I know of that is up around 1800 FPS is the modern smokeless ones which shoot jacketed bullets. These are beyond the limits of discussion on this forum area.

By the way, never try to use smokeless powder of any kind in a side lock muzzleloader. The materials they are made from are not designed to take the rapid rise in chamber pressure these powders create.
 
I doubt I could get that high with BP in my 50-140 Sharps, based upon performance with bullets ranging from a little to a lot heavier, so you are probably talking a lot heavier powder charges at astronomical pressures.
 
Zonie;

Thanks for the reply. I doubt I can get much beyond 1400 fps. My two bullets currently are 345 grains and 395 grains after sizing and lubing. There is a 300 grain bullet I may try as well to reach 1500 or perhaps higher. I have pushed my 345 to near 1600 with 777 in my Sharps.

Dan
 
Dan: That's a worthy goal I guess, and don't take it as an attack, but I never cease to be amazed by people striving to use massive bullets driven at high velocities just to kill a deer.

These heavy bullet guns were intended for long ranges (over 200 yards) where a roundballs velocity has pretty much been lost.
They were good for killing Buffalo and Big Bears and men at 700 yards but in my opinion are not needed for a thin skinned creature like a deer.

Here again, IMO with the limitation of iron sights and the need to accuratly place the bullet in a critical area a range limit of 120 yards (for people like me) makes a .50 cal (or better yet a .54) roundball a great choice for deer.

Just me I guess.

Good luck with your gun. :)
zonie :)
 
Zonie

My idea of heavy is 300 grains. I hate shooting 400+ grain bullets in my Sharps. I'm all about light recoil and there's nothing past 200 yards I need to shoot at. Here in Illinois, I have to use a shotgun/slug, a muzzleloader or a handgun during gun season. My "handgun" if you can call it that, is a .45-70 G2 Contender which I have loaded to 1635fps with a 300 grain bullet. Seem's like I'm in a rut with .45 caliber and 300 grain bullets,doesn't it.

So far, open sights hasn't been a limiting factor for me - but as my eyes change, that will probably present a problem.

Hopefully, I won't put a breech plug through my forehead with this project.

Dan
 
Dan: Why not use a 250 grain, 45 cal. bullet in your .45-70 for deer. It weighs more than enouh, will give a flatter trajectory, and much less recoil. Even a .457 cal. round ball can be loaded in front of black powder, and a fiber wad to seal the bore behind the ball for a nice, low recoiling deer load. You can even reduce the velocity of that round ball by using less BP, and filling the rest of the casing with corn meal, behind a wad, and then a round ball. Same with a light lead bullet. And, all these ideas are readily converted over to a Black powder ML rifle or pistol.

I also live in Illinois, and hunt here, and frankly, its rare to even see a deer beyond 100 yds, unless its across some open field on a neighbor's property you have no permission to hunt! Most shots are well within 50 yds. You just don't need a conical to kill a deer at these ranges.
 
Paul;

I know you don't "need" a conical to kill a deer at those ranges. I already have ball shooting rifles and they work fine. But I'm also enamoured with the .45-70 ballistically and want to come close to recreating that experience. Believe me, I have a number of nice muzzleloaders to choose from which ever game I hunt. This is a project. 250 grain bullets might be a possibility, but I want to use my cast lead molds that I use for the .45-70 and not a pistol bullet with a corresponding smaller bore diameter. .457/.458 is what I am looking for.

Recoil has a point where what you receive doesn't fit the punishment you take. In my considerable years with the .45-70, I've determined that unless you are hunting buffalo or shooting at Creedmore, anything over 350 grains is pretty much a waste of precious resources. At the same time, shooting shotgun/slug combinations keeps 300 to 400 grains grains pretty much in the equation.

As I shoot .458 in centerfire rifles, .458 in centerfire pistols in the Contender, why not a .458 muzzleloader as well? It's a diameter that allows for a wide range of bullet profiles from fat and flat, to spitzer as well. It meets the minimum caliber requirement of every state's muzzleloading laws, it can be used from bambi to grizzly depending on the load. Besides that...it's just an experiment. It may be totally worthless when I'm done. But I doubt it.

Thanks for everyone's comments.

Dan
 
kDan: I went back to re-read all your original comments on this project, trying to understand what you are doing. The biggest concern is that the depth of grooves in a ML rifle barrel are much deeper than that found on a cartridge gun, even the .45-70. IF Bobby Hoyt is going to make a liner or new barrel for your GPR, he will have to make the grooves only about .004" deep at the most, if you are going to use cast .45-70 bullets in it.

Stick with the shorter, smaller, lighter, 300 grain bullet. You will have to cast it from pure lead rather than an alloy, in order for it to expand on firing and grab the rifling. Tell Bobby what bullet you are going to use, so he can rifle the barrel, or liner with the correct ROT for that bullet.

You definitely are going to need to seal the barrel with over powder cards, like you use in the .45-70 cartridge. You will want to use a couple of the oversize, .460 diameter felt wads. Oxyoke made the prelubed kind and those work well in both the .44 Ruger Old Army Revolver, and in .45 cal. ML rifles to get down into the grooves and seal the bore.

In order to get the best accuracy, you will need to drive the bullet down the barrel consistently so that it is properly aligned on the same axis. Most cast bullets are made .001 " smaller in diameter than the bore, or land diameter. In a cartridge gun, with shallow grooves, this allows the bullet to upset a little on firing, and fill the grooves, making its own powder seal.

If I were trying to do what you are doing, I would want the bullet to be sized to the land diameter, even if I have to tap it down the barrel with a rubber or wooden mallet. I would consider using a false muzzle or coned muzzled to center the bullet, like the new T/C barrels are set up, so that the bullet is loaded straight, and centered every time.

If you have a barrel made with the more typical ML rifle depth of rifling, I think you are going to have to use a heavy card wad over the powder to seal off the gases. Gas cutting will be fatal to accuracy with that bullet. The deep rifling of a ML barrel will allow gas cutting unless something of Groove diameter is used to seal them off. Normally, a cloth patch around a soft round ballis used to do this job. YOu are going to use overpowder cards to do the job that the cloth patch used to do. BTW. the reason I suggested you consider using the small .452 cal. 250 grain bullets, is that you could paper patch them and let the paper help seal those grooves in the barrel. Yyour 45-70 equivalent barrel willl be a specialty barrel indeed. It not only will have a much faster rate of twist than you want for round ball shooting, but it also will have the shallow rifling.

Take a look at some of the reproduction .58 cal rifles like the " Zuave " guns. They also come with the shallow rifling, because they are mainly set up to shoot what the original guns shot, and that is a soft, cast, hollow based conical bullet, that had to seal the barrel with its skirt on the base of the bullet. The rifling was very shallow compared to what you see on Hawken and plains style rifles.

Finally, if you get a load that produces 1500 FPS velocity, it will be more than enough for any deer hunting, or Elk hunting you will ever do. I think 1800 fps would be extremely hard on the barrel, breechplug, and stock of your GPR, not to mention your shoulder. Even at that velocity, you are going to go through nipples at an alarming rate, whether they are platinum lined, or not.

You might want to visit with some of the Slug Gun shooters at Friendship and talk to them about the problems they face with the heavy powder charges and slugs they shoot. There are only about 80-100 Slug Gun Shooters across the lower 48, and they are a friendly bunch. They have been there, and done that, as they say, and they could help you avoid some needless expense, and damage. Even in a .45 cal. rifle shooting round ball, if you put a lot of powder behind the ball, you can burn out the nipples pretty fast.

I recently saw it happen, when a standard nipple was used in a gun that was loaded to the max. Shots were fired over a chronograph, as the owner was working up his accuracy load at 100 yds. All of a sudden the velocity dropped more than 100 fps, and then became very eratic, with a much wider SDV than he was getting originally. ( a SDV of 12 fsp!) He checked the powder, the balls, by measuring them and weighing them, and even the bore of the gun. When all those things check out okay, he looked at the nipple, and it had been burned out with less than one hundred shots. ( probably less than 50 shots!, as he was not counting.)

Good luck on the project.
 
Thanks for all the sound advice. We will be reporting in about 3 months...when the barrel is done.

Dan
 

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