Newbie with Questions

[ChrisHarris]

I'll cut right to the chase and ask the questions directly. I don't currently have a black powder gun, but I am interested.

I'm left handed and left eye dominant.

Percussion or flint?
Buy or build a kit?

Now I'll explain the reason for the questions:

I have been doing a bit of reading and I know that I want to go the traditional route, which led me to this website. I won't go into why I chose the traditional route, as I think my opinions on the matter are mostly in-line with the rest of you, which again, is why we're here and not on some other website that includes both styles of muzzle loaders.

My first question has to do with the style/method of ignition. Percussion or flintlock.

From what little bit of reading I've done, I'm thinking I want to go the percussion route. My intention is to hunt white tails with my new front loader. It seams to me there is a bit of a delay with the flintlock. As many of you know, white tails don't stick around very long when they hear a strange sound. I'm afraid the delay will lead to a lot of missed shots, or worse, wounded animals. Now I realize there are lots of people that kill deer with flintlocks, but consider I'm a newbie with no experience shooting these types of guns.

Percussion seams to be a faster firing method - squeeze.. bang!

Instead of the flintlock which is more of a squeeze......

........

.......

....... bang!

Again, I'm new to this, so if those assumptions are incorrect, let me know. I'm asking for guidance.

I am aware that you can 'hot rod' any gun to make it go 'bang' quicker. But for the novice shooter, I'd prefer to stay relatively 'stock' with my trigger components until I get more involved with the sport. Rushing into a hot-rodded gun seams like a recipe for disaster. I prefer to approach dangerous activities with a bit more reserve until I am comfortable, competent and confident.

Next question is ..... buy a 'ready to shoot' gun or build a kit?

I'd like to buy a kit, but thats my emotions talking. The reason for wanting to buy a kit is because I like to build stuff. My other hobby is flying radio control airplanes. Just as any hobby or sport, flying radio control airplanes presents a few options. You can go the 'traditional' way and build your airplanes from a kit. A kit is a box of wood and a blueprint. You get an assortment of die-cut plywood formers and balsa parts, along with some sticks and a bit of thin sheeting. You follow a blueprint, along with an instruction manual, and build the kit. You have to sand and shape. You have to paint and fiberglass parts together. There's no instant gratification here. It takes hundreds, even thousands of hours to turn a box of sticks into a precision flying machine.

Your other option is to buy one of the more common ARF's (Almost Ready to Fly) that are built with slave labor over in china or some other overseas labor camp. These ARFs are 95% built and assembled for you. All the 'modeler' needs to do is slap a few pieces together and mount their engine and electronic components inside the already built airplane. Then go fly it. Typical assembly time from the box to the flying field is no more than 10 - 20 hours. ARF's appeal to the instant gratification members of our society. No elbow grease. No time commitment. No modeling skills are built or nourished. It's a 'buy it today and fly it tomorrow' mentality that sickens me.

Now don't get me wrong... I'm NOT insinuating that people who buy muzzle loaders from the factory are 'instant gratification' types of people. After all, any of us can go out and shoot a 30-06 center fire gun anytime we want. We're here, talking about muzzle loaders because we enjoy the old school, traditional ways of these magnificent weapons. Not because any of us are 'instant gratification' types of people.

I'm simply pointing out that I do not have a problem doing it 'the hard way' when it comes to me getting into this sport. I got no problem buying a kit and putting in the elbow grease to build something that shoots straight and looks good.

My emotions tell me it would be fun to buy the kit (Traditions Firearms -- Deer Hunter or the Kentucky). My emotions tell me it would all turn out well and I should just go for it. The gun will be fine. Traditions Firearms does offer kits in left-handed percussion style.

My common sense tells me to go buy a used Hawken for $350 and see if I even like muzzle loaders first. But it's not going to be easy to find a left-handed used smoker, so there's a bit of a logistical challenge involved with that choice.

Thanks in advance for any help. Sorry to be so long winded.

 

[Trench]

First of all, you've come to the right place. your first step will be to dispell a lot of the myths you've learned from popular culture. I had to do the same thing. I started with a flintlock, and I can say that as long as you're keeping everything clean and using real black powder, you won't notice a dealy. Yes, it is slower than percussion, but not very perceptible. The deer that I took yesterday in the photo with my flinter didn't notice any delay, either. :grin:

I think that if you are left handed then you should get a left hand set-up. Bottom line, buy what will make your experience most enjoyable and then go from there. Like anything, you will likely go through an evolution in this hobby and what you choose today will be different on what you settle on 5 or 10 years from now.

 

[tg]

With a good flintlock you will find little difference in ignition time but the cost will be higher than a servicable production caplock which is usualy the best way for a beginner to go IMHO some can be had in left hadned modles and one can get into the sport for less $$ to see if it is what one really wants to do, later if it becomes addictive a nice well made flinter can be purchased, the use of a caplock does limit the time frame one can do "historicaly" but this should not really be much of a consideration at this early stage of the game, the Lyman Great Plains with a ball barrel is a good production starter gun and more traditional in appearance than the other half stocks around, good luck and enjoy the journey,and keep a fine weave screen handy to sort the wheat from the chaff.

 

[ChrisHarris]

I forgot to mention..

I did meet one of the guys from the local club today. I stopped in the local ML store and spoke with the owner for a bit. But she got busy with paying customers, so I took to reading catalogs and browsing accessories. A fella walked in and we got to talking.

He invited me to the local club and offered to let me shoot any of his 3 different guns. All are percussion guns. There's a 'Scrap Metal' shooting match at the local club on December 11th and he invited me to go and shoot with him.

He said there would be plenty of guys and gals around and he was sure that many of them would let me shoot their guns. He suggested this would be a good way for me to 'test drive' a few different guns and it was something the club members often did, as a way to encourage new membership.

I'm planning to go.

 

[Trench]

That is a great way to get introduced in to the hobby without the expense of experimenting yourself. I think you'll fine at that shoot will peak your interest!

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Welcome to the "Dark Side".

OK well if your flintlock is so slow that the deer hear the rifle action working and can get out of the way..., the lock is not working right. In fact humans cannot tell the delay difference with the naked ear on a properly working flintlock lock. If you ever get a chance to watch vintage episodes of the TV Series Daniel Boone starring Fess Parker 1964-1970..., the flintlock sound effect that they use indicates none of their guns were working "right". Flintlocks require a bit more practice, but once mastered they are the most fun by far (imho).

Percussion is more reliable in wetter weather, and is often much cheaper. (Although you can still get misfires, and the deer run off.) This is why many folks start with a percussion gun, especially if they are not sure they will stay with BP. I have five percussion rifles, including the first black powder gun that I ever owned. They work fine.

I switched to flint as historically percussion didn't fit with my other activities, and I really haven't thought about switching back, except for upland bird hunting. I get deer every year with my flintlock. I intend to get a deer tomorrow btw.

As for "kits", that's one of those terms that really has a wide range of interpretations in black powder gunning. When I was younger, a "kit" was a fully assembled rifle, but you had to finish the cosmetics up. So the brass needed polishing, the barrel needed browning, the wood on the stock needed sanding, staining and sealing. Pretty much similar to your ARF type stuff that you mentioned. They were made in Spain or the US. When finished they shot very well. Today, that's called a kit by some companies, and custom builders call it building a rifle "in-the-white".

Other folks think getting a stock that is partially finished, and getting the parts to go with it, makes a "kit". There is a lot more work. You have to finish fitting the parts to the stock, and finish some of the hardware as well. There is the possibility you can really screw up a gun if you make some mistakes..., on the other hand you can end up with a really nice, very custom made piece as well.

For the average Joe, making a gun from parts is for the level (imho) above newbie, but for some this type of project is not that tough. I have a good friend who was into woodworking, and inlaying, and when he got into black powder, he assembled a very well made rifle from parts on his first try, though it took him about 6 months.

So..., you can assemble an accurate percussion rifle for not too much money from a mostly-finished kit. The more you spend on this type of kit, the better looking the gun will be, and the quality of the parts will be better. You are talking about a price range between $260.00 for the Traditions Kentucky Long Rifle to around $550.00 for a Lyman Great Plains Rifle kit. There is no reason you couldn't take deer with the Traditions rifle, while the Lyman is higher quality in parts, has the added feature of a set trigger, and is prettier. In constrast..., for parts to assemble your own custom gun..., you are starting out at around $550.00 for just the parts, and need to use much more labor.

So I'd suggest you think about an inexpensive percussion, perhaps a used one in good shape, and go from there. There is some satisfaction in completing a mostly finished kit, that you don't get when buying a finished gun over-the-counter.

So consider these options, and good luck. If you decide to check a pawn shop or gun shop for a used one,.., you should really get a knowledgable person to check out the rifle before you buy, unless you know the gunshop folks very well and trust their evaluation. HINT: I know of several gunshops that are excellent on modern guns, but..., know very little on traditional BP guns.

Have fun. I hope I helped you.

LD

 

[ChrisHarris]

Thank you all for the help and suggestions.

I am still leaning toward the percussion gun.

I fully understand the word 'kit' is a very wide open/vague term. There's the 'builders kit' which involves sourcing parts on your own and a lot of custom work on the stock and even some metal working of the furniture. Then there's the 'production kit' which I think would be a good description of the Tradition Firearms kits that I was looking at. Most of the major work is done - you just sand it and finish the stock, mount the hardware and barrel. Go shootin'

I am starting to think a kit, in any form, may not be the best choice for a novice muzzle loader enthusiast. Emotionally, yes, that sounds great. But realistically, I could screw up and end up with a box of parts thats good for nothing more than a mantle display.

Probably better go to the BP local store - they seam very knowledgeable - and pick up a used gun for $300. They had Lymans for $300 - $600 and Thompsons for $250 - $1200. All they do is BP and historic clothing. I think they should be pretty knowledgeable about BP guns.

I'll attend the shoot at the club on the 11th and ask around about other local BP gun shops. I'll be looking to purchase my first smoker after the holidays. Mrs Harris would skin me alive if I bought another gun right now. Kids need Xbox games and she probably needs 3 or 4 pairs of shoes for her collection. :rotf:

 

[William O.]

I think your best bet is to go with the Lyman Great Plains Rifle, which comes in flintlock or percussion, in 50 or 54 caliber. Here's the best place to buy them new, for around $400. I'm not saying that a used gun shouldn't be an option and if you find a good deal then take it, but the GPR is an excellent starter for folks in your situation and for some, the only muzzle loader they ever want or need. http://store.thirdgenerationshootingsupply.com/browse.cfm/2,4705.html
If you want a strictly utilitarian muzzle loader for hunting, check out the Deerstalker, which gets you in for under $300, shipping and tax included.

 

[ken.clements]

mornin' (it is here anyway) :wink:

a used ML I believe is the way to go. Doesn't matter which type or brandname. As long as you stay in caliber with your second ML (and yes you will :grin: ), you've bought nothing that lays around and collects dust.
I would suggest reading a couple of older posts here about cleaning, storing, loading and such....this together with your chance to shoot on the range and meet people will bring you up to paar in a couple of weeks. :wink:
lots of luck and fun....I would have written that all of us here are sorry that you are about to be bitten by "the Bug"......but I know I'm not sorry :rotf:
Wait untill you make your own smoke.... :rotf: :rotf:

 

[ChrisHarris]

I think your best bet is to go with the Lyman Great Plains Rifle, which comes in flintlock or percussion, in 50 or 54 caliber. Here's the best place to buy them new, for around $400. I'm not saying that a used gun shouldn't be an option and if you find a good deal then take it, but the GPR is an excellent starter for folks in your situation and for some, the only muzzle loader they ever want or need. http://store.thirdgenerationshootingsupply.com/browse.cfm/2,4705.html
If you want a strictly utilitarian muzzle loader for hunting, check out the Deerstalker, which gets you in for under $300, shipping and tax included.

They even got a LH model there!! Under $300 :bow:

Now if I could just fast forward the calendar up to December 26th, I could buy that sucker and the Mrs wouldn't skin me. Might have to call them on Monday.......

Thank you!!!

I found a review of this exact gun on Chuck Hawks website, but I can't seam to post a link to it. He's using the flintlock version, but he had great things to say about it.

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

Percussion seams to be a faster firing method - squeeze.. bang!

Instead of the flintlock which is more of a squeeze......

........

.......

....... bang!

:nono: :nono: :youcrazy: :rotf: :rotf:

A product of to much hollywood and poor practices.

If you notice lag with a flintlock your doing it wrong.

Flintlock is hands down more reliable than a cap gun.

The better shooters tend towards shooting a flintlock.

Shooting a flintlock takes more discipline, this makes you a better shot than if you shoot a cap gun.

Flintlock is the longest standing widespread ignition system.

Flintlocks are higher on the cool scale.

As a first timer you would do well to shoot both ignition systems if you can without having to buy right away, and look for a used unit to get into the sport with, something that has a good re-sale value.

Then look for a set of parts you feel comfortable with assembling, just remember, if you start out with cheap sh&$, you'll end up with cheap sh&$, no mater how much time and effort you put into it.

Good Luck.

 

[necchi]

As many have said the Flint Lock can be very reliable,
But for entry level I'd still recomend the Percussion. There is a learning curve with Traditional guns and accuterments and with the Perc it's a little easier.

Your on the right track and have a HUGE advantage that many novice don't have, that's ready access to a group of mentors. You'll be very well served by those that already have a passion for Trad ML and Rendezvous.
What/Who is your local Shop?
I live about 35 miles from Track of the Wolf,, very handy; http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(wb2nttfs2dog2j2xtn5ri52m))/Index.aspx

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

Case in point about the speed of a flintlock fireing, just click here.

I'll say it again, if your flinlock does not go off that fast your doing it wrong.

 

[ebiggs1]

I think your best bet is to go with the Lyman Great Plains Rifle, which comes in flintlock or percussion, in 50 or 54 caliber. 

Without question this is the best advice you have received. But it needs to further specify you get a left hand version in CAP lock. Plus get the kit model and stick with 50 cal for starters. After you get yourself acquainted with muzzle loaders you can explore the flintlock critter and become hopelessly snagged for life. Plus going to a 54 cal. And the journey begins ”¦....................

Oh, and, do make sure you get the GPR not the lesser models. :thumbsup:

 

[Zonie]

I think it fair to point out that Lyman offers two versions of their Great Plains guns.

The Great Plains Rifle has a barrel that is made for shooting patched roundballs, the lowest cost way to shoot.

The Great Plains Hunter has a barrel that is made for shooting conical bullets and those modern plastic sleeved things we don't talk about here. These bullets cost much more than the patched roundballs and the recoil is much greater when they are used.

 

[mjulihn]

Chris,
Lots of good wisdom here. I recently discovered black powder shooting and went the percussion route. Found a .50 cal perc pistol that just needed some refinishing work done on the stock, and a brand-name .50 cal Hawken that only needed a little TLC to become clean and serviceable again. I am very happy with both.