Nipple Question (Not THAT kind of nipple!)

[NoJacketRequired]

Ahem! Now that I have your attention...

I have both the "standard" No.11 percussion cap nipples and "hotshot" or similar nipples for my Hawken rifles. The "hotshot" nipples are taller and have holes drilled in them, I presume to induce air and allow for a greater volume of fire to reach the powder charge. I'd like to know how more experienced shooters would compare the results of using standard versus "hotshot" nipples. Do the hotshots provide more reliable ignition? Do they cause more moisture problems in hunting situations? Are they only good for getting more grunge sprayed all over the barrel and lock? Do they provide any advantage at all if you put a "cap condom" on the cap to keep moisture out?

Please take a moment to recount your experiences and provide your opinions, both good and bad. As always, I appreciate the opportunity to learn from those more experienced than I.

 

[musketman]

I was under the impression that hot shot nipples has holes in the sides of the tube to blow the spent percussion cap open with the gas generated from the powder, this allows ease of removial of the cap from the tube...

 

[Stumpkiller]

I seem to remember someone explaining the holes when they came out with the Hotshot as assuring the air trapped by the cap on the nipple does not 'compress' and prevent the flash from reaching the powder. (We need a 'rolling eyes graemlin for these instances). I think they work as well as a regular nipple, but I generally use plain old AMPCO nipples. I put more faith in the cone shape funnel inside than any advantage offerred by the little holes. I vote for marketing ploy as the likely reason for the holes. They sit a bit higher than a normal nipple, and can exhibit a smashed lip on the rim nearest the shooter. A minor concern since once it has been fired a couple dozen times it flattens out.

 

[sse]

Not THAT kind of nipple

Not what kind of nipple??

 

[roundball]

What an interestingt set of answers...MM is going to have to hit google again!

IMHO, there's no comparison...the hot-shot nipple is better and the first thing I always did on a new percussion barrel was replace the factory nipple with a hot-shot.

My readings over the years were that the design & length of the hot-shot nipple accounts for it's increased ignition efficiency...and that the side vent hole is a design point that regulates pressure more consistently from shot to shot, making velocity more consistent from shot to shot.

(And that a side effect (no pun intended) is that the side venting gases usually do expand the spent cap, making it easier to remove)

 

[sabotloader]

How many of you have looked at the contact area of your hammer to nipple. Is it hitting square and FLAT? If is not hitting flat you are not directing all of the flash directly downward through the nipple - some of the flash will escape from under the hammer. If you look at guns that have been inletted properly the hammers will be flush on the nipple, if you are not flush, as most production guns are not, increasing the heigth of the nipple may increase the mis-match (might fix it also). Both Thompson and Lyman use very short nipples moving to a taller Hot-Shot may/might make a greater problem than the gain of the Hot-shot. And I agree with musketman's thought on the hole in the tower of the nipple. The real difference may be in the base of the nipple where/when the flash comes out. The venturi effect of the hot-shot may be the reason for the name. I myself can not really tell the difference between the hot-shot, knight's red-hot, and a good standard stainless nipple.

 

[Zonie]

Although I use them, I really can't tell any difference except they do tend to blow the cap apart, often splitting it so well that it ends up pasted to the inside of the nose of the hammer.

 

[sse]

Boy, do I know what you're talking about there. For many of my earliest outings, in the heat of the excitement, I would get two or three of the spent caps stuck in the hammer. I never knew which one of them was going off, and if it did, why it didn't ignite the charge. Then I got looking closer and noticed all the metal stacked in there. :redface: It got pretty tough to dig them outta there, until I determined that was what the little notches in the nose was for, made it much easier by sticking the point of the pocket knife in there.

Regards, sse

 

[NoJacketRequired]

Hmmm, so far we've had a pretty good range of responses. Thanks to all for your thoughtful comments! I will definitely have to do some measurement of hammer-to-nipple contact angles and choose the best one for the job based on that measurement. I don't suppose there'd be much harm in drilling a hole in a standard nipple to obtain all the purported benefits of the taller hotshots if necessary.

Now I'll drop another techno-bomb here and risk getting laughed off the board... If the 209 primer is the holy grail of ignition for the in-line guys, why hasn't somebody come up with a 209 nipple and hammer for our beloved sidelocks? I suspect there's a good reason, like maybe the 209 provides too much priming ooomph for the long and convoluted flame channel of a sidelock and would end up directing most of that flame into the face of the shooter (heaven forbid - then our percussion guns would be just like flintlocks! :. The main reason I like 209's is because they're pretty much sealed against weather, unlike our percussion caps which have virtually no protection. And I've got lots of 209's on hand because I reload for shotgun. Maybe there's a way to make them work on our guns.

Anyhow, that was just another late-night thought... I can hear RB, MM, Zonie and the others now muttering under their breath about there being nothing wrong with #11 caps... ::

 

[Stumpkiller]

Been done. It was overly complicated and near impossible to de-prime. It screwed together and had a small 'plunger' head that was prone to loss. A #11 and the proper design is good enough in 100% of cases, and a musket sized nipple works in the rest. ::

 

[Zonie]

What Stumpie said. They were too big of a PITA for the few benefits they provided.

Plus..Gol Darn IT, thay ain't old fashuned! Em shotty guns thangs ain't got no 170 yars o tradition! Thy Ain't got no character! Tha aint...sputter.sputter..gots no gasp!..class!! :shocking:

 

[Myra lou]

I've read and experienced, the reason that particular nipple has two hole drilled in the side is to prevent hammer blow back......I would get that when ever I used a magnum cap.....john.....

 

[roundball]

When I used to shoot Pyrodex in side hammer TC Hawkens, I noticed I would have a rare ignition failure, maybe 1 in 100 that was not due to my own making, and at the time was using CCI#11's.

I switched to CCI# 11 Magnum caps when they came out and never had another problem igniting Pyrodex in sidehammer.

Since then, I've switched mainly to flintlocks with Goex, and found it to be so fast, clean, and accurate, I've rezeroed all percussions with Goex as well, and ignition is just not anything I bother thinking about any more...it's simply instantaneous.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Ya know. Some deep thinker ought to invent an ignition system that uses a bit of the powder itself to fire the main charge. Something that doesn't need to be a seperate piece and replaced every shot - like maybe 40 or 50 shots between replacements. You could start with a percussion lock, but clamp something on the hammer that sparks, like a cigarette lighter. What did they call them things you used to put in Zippo lighters under the thumb wheel? . . . Flints, that's it. We could call it a "Flintlock". It would be faster than a percussion lock because the explosion would shoot straight in a hole right in the side of the barrel instead of the flash from a cap needing to take a right angle turn and travel an inch of nipple and drum channels. You could have a striking surface right on the lock and a close fitting lid to cover that bit of powder and keep it protected from the weather. Why . . . they could even be one hinged piece! What a concept! I can't believe no one though of this earlier!

I gotta go get a patent on this great idea! ::

 

[Herb]

N.J.R.- When I tested Triple 7 in my percussion rifles, there were frequent hangfires or even failures to fire, usting the standard 1/4x28 AMPCO nipple. A hotshot nipple cured this entirely. That type is also better for Pyrodex P and RS, but sometimes those powders ignite properly with the standard nipple. I found no disadvantage with the hotshot nipple and Goex black powder, but did not specifically test it against the standard. I noticed no apparent difference, but the only reason I'd want to use one is for the Triple 7 or Pyrodex powders. I did try CCI 11 Magnum caps and got little more velocity, more spread and poorer accuracy.

 

[roundball]

...awwww that's just plain crazy thinkin' stumpy...it'll never work because you didn't include a red/white/blue laminated birch/fiberglas thumbhole stock, fluted barrel, and 50 x 50 x 100 GPS guided, auto-laser rangefinder, night vision skylight scope !

 

[musketman]

Ya know. Some deep thinker ought to invent an ignition system that uses a bit of the powder itself to fire the main charge. Something that doesn't need to be a seperate piece and replaced every shot - like maybe 40 or 50 shots between replacements. You could start with a percussion lock, but clamp something on the hammer that sparks, like a cigarette lighter. What did they call them things you used to put in Zippo lighters under the thumb wheel? . . . Flints, that's it. We could call it a "Flintlock". You could have a striking surface right on the lock and a close fitting lid to cover that bit of powder and keep it protected from the weather. Why . . . they could even be one hinged piece! What a concept! I can't believe no one though of this earlier!

I gotta go get a patent on this great idea! ::

 

Hot-shot nipples create greater shot to shot velocity variations than the solid-sided nipple without the holes.
; The holes are nice as they blow the sides of the cap out for ease of removal.
: SO - It's a toss-up between better long range accuracy (generally) with solid-sided nipples and easier nipple removal iwth the hot-shots.
: This accuracy difference was relevent in my .69 as well as in the .58 & .54 Hawkens tested. The difference was on the order of 1 1/2" at 100yds., in other words, 1 1/2" bench groups with solid-sided nipples and 3" groups with hot-shots. Other rifles may differ as all rifles are individuals, as are pistols and smoothbores as well. What works in one, may not work exactly the same in another.
: There are trends that work in all guns, as in .018" to .020" patch and a ball .010" smaller than bore size for a rifle with cut rifling up to .012" deep.(.45 to .69) I have never seen a rifle that wouldn't shoot this combination very well. Some modification would help some, but most didn't chnage to better accuracy with any patch or ball change. We actually started with .005" smaller ball and the same .018" to .020" patch with better accracy in some, same in most.
; The crown shape is very important to giving good accuracy and releatively easy loading.

 

[Stumpkiller]

THATS IT MUSKETMAN! Just what I was imagining.

I'm at work, so all I had as a modeling medium was my liverwurst sandwich.

Here's my first conceptual model. I broke the onion section I had as a spring for the floppy-thing. Could be a design flaw.

 

[sse]

The difference was on the order of 1 1/2" at 100yds., in other words, 1 1/2" bench groups with solid-sided nipples and 3" groups with hot-shots.

Now that's interesting. I'm going to try switching back and see what happens.

Regards, sse