No spark from my flint

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fredrader

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Ok,I went to cabela's and bought a pack of 2 3/4" German Agate Flints and I installed one on my pistol but I can't get a spark..I have never messed with a flintlock before so I don't know what I am doing really..I took a few pics so maby someone can see if I have the flint installed correctly or what may be the problem..
Top pis is hammer dropped
2nd pic is at half cock..
3rd pic is full cock..


 
Loose the Agates and get some real flints. Rich Pierce sells home knapped ones that work well or order some from Track of the Wolf or some place. Also looks like you may need a smaller (5/8") flint, but hard to tell. And the angle is off on the hammer. The flint should be pointed at the center of the pan when the hammer is down. What kind of pistol is it?
 
First it looks like the flint protrudes out a bit to far.

I also agree about getting a different flint. Gun shops like to sell agates. they cost more and the mark up makes for more profit.

Your hammer doesn't look right for the rest of the gun. Are you sure that is the right hammer?

Hammers are supposed to be shaped so that the arc followed by the edge of the flint closely approximates the arc of the frizzen face, just enough off to nudge the frizzen open. Yours looks like it bashes high on the frizzen at an angle that isn't sharp enough. Looks like the lock geometry is off because of the hammer.

Can you post a picture showing more of the gun? OK saw the picture and thread. Markwell explains alot. Markwell was about as low quality as anyone would dare to sell in the US in the 1970's. I does look like the CVA Colonial pistol clones that many companies sold. But all is not lost. The weak point is indeed the lock. I don't believe that anything is bad about the rest of the gun. I do believe that on older CVA colonial pistol lock would fit your gun. Quality control was alot better on CVA stuff, but still not great.

The problem is that even the early CVA flint locks were'nt that great. From what I see, your lock plate shape is that your lock is probably nearly the same as the very early CVA flint locks. From about 1974 on CVA used a slightly larger and slightly better lock on it's products. Those won't fit, without a lot of inletting. Even Dixie Gun Works doesn't list a hammer for that lock.

You are probably stuck looking for another lock, or hand fitting a flint hammer from another gun. Such locks and guns come up on Guns America and Gun broker in various conditions almost weekly in percussion. (Compare the length of the lock plates, CVA used two different styles of percussion locks in their Colonial Pistol) In flint maybe a couple times a year.

An easy short cut to get an extra millimeter or two space for the flint, is to cut a round hole in the center of the flint leather and reinstall the flint into the jaws with the missing thickness of the leather where it abuts the jaw screw, you pick up some space. It could break the back side of the flint if the flint is pushed back too far and up against the screw.

If the gun was commercial, a larger picture would permnit us to compare it with known products.

To me the lock plate looks like a later 1830's civilian style lock with a mid 1700's style martial hammer. Granted a few guns continued to use that style hammer into the 1800's, (like the Harper's Ferry) but something just doesn't look right.

There were some odd mismatched style guns and locks sold over the years, Markwell was one of the offenders.
 
Thanks for all the info,I figured I was getting what I paid for when I paid $30 for it.. :redface:
If you click on the small pics I posted it will show a larger pic and click again on the large pic and you can see it really large..Thanks again




 
I would see if I could get it to fire with a real correct fitting flint. By the looks of that hammer, that may be challenging. I can tell you with my experience with Rich Pierce flints, that they would probably just shatter against your frizzen.His flints work great in good locks but are more brittle than the english black flints. If the lock spring is good and you get a good hammer throw I would maybe try fitting a different hammer, but for $30 and the quality of what you got, I wouldn't want to put much money into it.
 
I had a few CVA pistols from the 70's and that is not one of them. I was just wondering and someone here I am sure knows more than I. In the 70's they were selling a lot of non firing replicas. The bi-centenial and all. Be careful with that thing. You said you were not to experienced with muzzle loaders. I would take it to a good gun smith.To see what you got. I remember looking at a beautiful Kentucky flintlock during the bi centenial. It was styled after one of George Washingtons horse pistols. I could not live without it and the price was fantastic. After close examination I saw there was no touch hole and the gun felt very light. The guy behind the counter was clueless. He said I could probably drill a hole in the barrell with my craftsman drill and all would be fine. "Make sure you drill it in the bottom of the pan. You can mark the position of the hole with a pencil and then take the lock off and drill the hole" "The factory must of missed it". A customer next to me explained to me what I was holding. The barrell and all the metal parts were cast aluminum. Hello. What if I drilled that hole and replaced the frizzen with a nice hardened frizzen to get a good spark? I am sure it would be tough to get a spark from the original aluminum frizzen no matter what flint I used. I wonder where that gun is now? Be careful and have fun muzzleloading is a great sport and you have a lot of great people here to help.
 
It has the touch hole in it and the Brl is thick like my other cap lock so I don't think it is a replica..I have a guy bringing me a couple real flints so I will see what happens..
The frizzen is steel but when I dry fire it it did leave a couple marks on the frizzen like it is kinda soft..
 
You should test the frizzen to make sure it is hard enough to produce good sparks.

Use a small flat metal cutting file and try to file the face of the frizzen. Not a lot, just take a swipe or two.

The file should skid across the frizzen face leaving at most a slightly polished look.
It should not "bite" into the metal and actually remove any material.
If it does, the frizzen is too soft and it would have to be hardened before it will work.

If the maker left it soft it implies that they didn't really expect the gun to be used as a firearm. He also probably made the frizzen out of a low carbon steel that won't spark unless it is case hardened.

Whether you really want to put that much work into a $30 pistol I don't know but it will give you something to think about.

As for the angle of the flint, relative to the frizzen, the others are right.
It currently is pointed almost perpendicular to the frizzen face. It should be pointed downward at about a 30 degree angle.
It would probably help a little if the flint wasn't sticking out as far but even with it shortened (about impossible to do with an agate flint without a diamond cutter) it may still be striking the frizzen at the wrong angle.
 
I am of the opinion that what that is is one of those replica things as well. Dunno if it could ever be made to shoot and I would sure find a smith before I tried. Some replicas were made that all one needed to do was drill the touch hole and it was good to go so just because it is heavy and the barrel is thick doesn't mean it isn't a "replica". In any event the lock geometry is wrong from what I can see and I don't believe a simple flint replacement is going to solve that issue.
 
In 1972, I purchased a CVA kentucky flintlock pistol kit made in Spain. It had the exact same thimbles, front sight, trigger guard and trigger, Even the stock is the same, although perhaps two inches shorter. My lock was the later style with a longer lock plate. Yours is the length of the Colonial Pistol CVA sold. The Spanish arsenal where it was made, ran off copies with minor variations and different options depending on what the wholesaler wanted. I have seen other variations with decorative lines and etching on the barrels, which shared the same characteristics. Markwell Arms sold alot of cheaper Spanish made guns. The major problem was that the lock interior parts weren't finished or hardened properly and they soon failed to hold at either half or full cock.
 
Thanks for all the help everyone,I think I will take the frizzen off and heat it and cool it quick to harden it.Like you guys said the lock probably won't work but I will give it a try..Thanks again
 
If you haven't run the hardness test I mentioned above, do that first.

If the frizzen is soft, heating it to a bright orange red color and quenching it in water may harden it, may crack it or may do nothing.

On the first orange/red heating, drop it into a can of light weight oil. Then test the hardness.
If it is hard then it is an oil hardening steel.
If it is still soft, repeat the heating to orange/red and drop it into a can of water.
If it hardens it is a high carbon steel.

If it is still soft, it is a low carbon steel which must be carburized to add the carbon necessary for a steel to harden.

After carburizing heat the part to orange/red and quench it in water.

If any of these processes do harden the steel you must bake the part in a 350-400 degree oven for 15-30 minutes and then allow the part to air cool.
This baking (called tempering) softens the steel slightly and gives it the toughness needed to withstand the impact of a flint hitting it.
It also removes many of the internal stresses that may have developed from the rapid cooling of the quench.
 
Looking at the pictures again I see some things I either didn't see or just didn't comment on before.

Looking at the bottom picture in the second set there are some marks on the stock behind the lock. The stock on my rifle and handgun are notched back a bit in that area so that it doesn't interfer with the hammer.

Looking at the top picture where the hammer is supposedly all the way forward it appears that either the stock not being notched or the wrong flint (to large) has prevented the hammer from going all the way forward. The flint should be pointing down into the pan or very close instead it is still ponting well forward of the pan.

Maybe a little work on the stock and the correct flint will work just fine. I can't say without having it in my hand.

Good luck with it sir. IF you can make it work you got a steal at $30. If not you got a wall hanger that someone might enjoy having.
 
As low quality as Markwell is............A fellow took a Markwell 45 Kentucky with a home made stock............and beat us all with our fancy TC's and Customs last fall at our annual sillouette shoot LOL............They must have been like CVA..........Great barrel, not so great parts........................Bob
 
Definitely try the right length flint first. That one is so long it is just smashing into the frizzen, not scraping it. No way that is going to spark.
 
After you try all the above suggestions and if you get the frizzen hardened you may also try to change the angle of the hammer to frizzen strike.
Take the hammer off and hacksaw a slot into the hole on the hammer from the frizzen side. Now heat the back side of the hammer and bend the hammer closed and solder or braze it back together. This should change the angle of the hammer to frizzen and hopefully also make the flint point into the pan when the hammer is down at full stroke. You are looking at a lot of work unless you just like to tinker. good luck on what you deside to do.
Fox :hatsoff:
 
I took it to the garage and heated the removed the hammer and frizzen..I heated the frizzen cherry red and cooled it in oil and gave it the file test and the file didn't dig in so I guess it is hard enough..
I also heated the hammer and bent it forward and cooled it in oil..I made the flint a little shorter too..
I installed everything and gave it a try and it sparked real good a few times and then it stopped sparking.. :cursing: I don't know why it would spark a few times (Really good) and then stop..
The top pic is before and the bottom is after bending..

 
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