NWTG in the Colonies?

[Rob M.]

There are documents mentioning Carolina guns that I know of from 1738 to 1790 ....yes , they all had flat brass sideplates .... BUT ....as asked by the OP ....were there N.W. Trade guns in the colonies during the Rev. War ? Yep ... I'm sure they were out numbered by colonial and English fowlers but they were present ...I'll bet with smaller trigger guard and slimmer stocks than an 1830 model N.W. " Fuke " . See if I can find the really early example of a N.W. trade gun they dug up not too long ago. They found the makers mark ...I can't remember but it was dated to 17 teens or there abouts approx. ....earliest one I know of !! Its amazing . The name " N.W. gun " is mention in documents in the 1750s . Seems there was a mention in late 1740s but not certain .... Found the pics!!

 

[Rob M.]

N.W. trade gun made in 1751 ... 42" barrel .

 

[CyrusP]

Thank you everyone again for the great info. This is why this is my favorite place in the interwebs.

Thank you Al Gore!!!!!! I’ll forever be grateful for your invention!!!!

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
An English fowler like the one Kibler makes or even higher quality was one of the most common guns in the American colonies, north, south, east, and west. These were not cheap "trade" guns, rather good quality English sporting guns and very affordable. Wilson, Bumford, and Turvey were popular makers among American colonists for these kinds of guns.

dave

 

[FlinterNick]

Hello. Were there NWTG’s in the colonies around the time of the AWI? I love my newly acquired NWTG and would like to think some were carried in that time and place. Thanks.

Not northwest trade guns, no, those are a later period design. There were trade guns of various types though, Dutch, English, French and even Spanish.

 

[FlinterNick]

I'm curious about this too. I ordered one of the Kibler fowlers and was wondering if that style of gun would have been carried by the colonials during the war

Fowlers were very common during the rev war period. For militia use i don’t think expensive fowlers would have have been used not saying they were not used, just not likely, my opinion, rather more likely an older Fowler was more likely used than a higher quality English Fowler. A lot of New England Dutch Fowlers are often seen in Rev War museums, these were heavily built guns with large stocks, locks and higher calibers, some were even used as rampart runs. You’ll also see a lot of crude fowlers with dog locks and very early bridleless locks, sheet metal furniture etc. some folks reference these as trade guns too.

 

[longcruise]

Fowlers were very common during the rev war period. For militia use i don’t think expensive fowlers would have have been used not saying they were not used, just not likely, my opinion, rather more likely an older Fowler was more likely used than a higher quality English Fowler.

Not going adversarial here but I'm pretty sure that if a militiamen entered the fray they would have used whatever they have.

The 1751 Era built NW gun posted by @Rob M is either misattributed or shows that they were there in the time frame.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
I think folks get confused about militia during the Rev War. Most militiamen had military pieces with relatively standard bores so they could be supplied by the colony with standard ammunition. Otherwise, logistics would be a nightmare. Perhaps it was a bit more freestyle in the South but not in northern colonies. With the exception of colonies with Quaker controlled legislatures (PA being the most prominent) , most had legal standards requiring militia to carry a musket of particular bore and to be issued one if they did not possess one. Minutemen were different. They had to be called out at a moment's notice and either owned or were given a musket or carried whatever they had with their own ammunition. They were not mustered in the same way as militia and issued ammunition and supplies. They came running in the emergency with their own kit ready to go.

dave

 

[Jeffrey Gardner]

God, I love the things we learn whenever Dave chimes in. His breadth of knowledge is remarkable. Thanks, Dave.

 

[Clark Badgett]

Not northwest trade guns, no, those are a later period design. There were trade guns of various types though, Dutch, English, French and even Spanish.

Actually, both Rob and I posted information about the 1751 trade gun that has all the features of the now accepted pattern. Hanson said that only 2 features needed to be present to be a Northwest gun, Fox stamp and cast serpent sideplate. I personally think that list should include simple iron guard and brass sheet buttplate.

 

[FlinterNick]

Actually, both Rob and I posted information about the 1751 trade gun that has all the features of the now accepted pattern. Hanson said that only 2 features needed to be present to be a Northwest gun, Fox stamp and cast serpent sideplate. I personally think that list should include simple iron guard and brass sheet buttplate.

The NWTG I’m referring to have the HUD bay company stamps and markings.

There were similar patterns during the revolution but a true northwest trade gun, the ones collectors often refer to were as you said minus a few salient details.

I think earlier guns may have had full round barrels too, can’t be certain.

 

[Rob M.]

Not going adversarial here but I'm pretty sure that if a militiamen entered the fray they would have used whatever they have.

The 1751 Era built NW gun posted by @Rob M is either misattributed or shows that they were there in the time frame.

Yes , exactly ...you got it bud ... If you were in the militia you brought whatever you had to the muster or the battle . No ....everyone did not have a military style musket and no , everyone did not have the same gauge or caliber flintlock..... It was the militia ! Not the army ... Wow , some of these answers ! N.W. guns were made from the 1740s , by name by the H.B.C. , the inventor of the N.W. gun , was making trade guns since the 17th century ....

 

[Clark Badgett]

Yes , exactly ...you got it bud ... If you were in the militia you brought whatever you had to the muster or the battle . No ....everyone did not have a military style musket and no , everyone did not have the same gauge or caliber flintlock..... It was the militia ! Not the army ... Wow , some of these answers ! N.W. guns were made from the 1740s , by name by the H.B.C. , the inventor of the N.W. gun , was making trade guns since the 17th century ....

I don’t recall saying that HBC was making NW guns from the 1740s, but they did directly come from the flat engraved serpent plate trade gun. And no, they ain’t Carolina guns.

 

[rich pierce]

Not going adversarial here but I'm pretty sure that if a militiamen entered the fray they would have used whatever they have.

The 1751 Era built NW gun posted by @Rob M is either misattributed or shows that they were there in the time frame.

Where was this gun found? And is there documentation about where it was delivered to? There is a difference between “they existed somewhere in 1751” and “NWTGs were in the 13 colonies in 1751.”

They were called NORTHWEST trade guns for a reason. They were sold to fur trading companies in what was then the Northwest. Not called NETG New England trade guns. Not called MATG Middle Atlantic trade guns. Not named Virginia trade guns. You get the idea.

“Existing somewhere” and “ fairly commonly found in location X” are very different things.

Folks get a gun and then they want it to fit everywhere and in every timeframe. Very common.

“But they existed!” Haha

 

[FlinterNick]

N.W. trade gun made in 1751 ... 42" barrel .

Careful with Neuman’s book, some of his collection were not from the rev war era.

 

[FlinterNick]

I don’t recall saying that HBC was making NW guns from the 1740s, but they did directly come from the flat engraved serpent plate trade gun. And no, they ain’t Carolina guns.

If they were making guns from the 1740’s they were certainly not in control of the Quebec and Canadian territory, while held claim to Hudson Bay, i think you would have mostly seen these guns used as they were intended in the fur trade and traded to native Americans. militia user, i have my doubts about that, very possible that they carried by native Americans and Canadian militia.

 

[Rob M.]

I don’t recall saying that HBC was making NW guns from the 1740s, but they did directly come from the flat engraved serpent plate trade gun. And no, they ain’t Carolina guns.

HBC was making N.W. trade guns way before 1740 , and I said that in t you ...no , they did not come from a flat engraved side plate , there is not one example of one or any indication of a flat engraved side plate from any written records of the HBC ....where are you getting this BS from ? I would not be surprised if very early examples had a flat engraved side plate but the earliest example know , I posted pics , is from the 17 teens to 1720 ish and it is a cast side serpent sideplate .

 

[Rob M.]

If they were making guns from the 1740’s they were certainly not in control of the Quebec and Canadian territory, while held claim to Hudson Bay, i think you would have mostly seen these guns used as they were intended in the fur trade and traded to native Americans. militia user, i have my doubts about that, very possible that they carried by native Americans and Canadian militia.

Wow !! You too ! No one said HBC was in control of Canada or their fur trade . The French were until after the F&I war ....what are you guys smoking ? Did any of you even read the O.P.s original question ? Yes , N.W. guns were present in the colonial states during the Rev. War . Were they popular or common to see in the colonies ? I dont know but I doubt it as they were more intended as trade items and would be more common in the hands of natives or Colonials in the back woods , as stated earlier ....

 

[WALT53]

Wow !! You too ! No one said HBC was in control of Canada or their fur trade . The French were until after the F&I war ....what are you guys smoking ? Did any of you even read the O.P.s original question ? Yes , N.W. guns were present in the colonial states during the Rev. War . Were they popular or common to see in the colonies ? I dont know but I doubt it as they were more intended as trade items and would be more common in the hands of natives or Colonials in the back woods , as stated earlier ....

I guy I met bought an original North west trade gun from a ware house in Winnipeg Manitoba a couple years ago and it was a percussion and the barrel was full of grease still .also it was 24 gauge 58 calibre that looked like it could be easily changed to flint .

 

[FlinterNick]

Wow !! You too ! No one said HBC was in control of Canada or their fur trade . The French were until after the F&I war ....what are you guys smoking ? Did any of you even read the O.P.s original question ? Yes , N.W. guns were present in the colonial states during the Rev. War . Were they popular or common to see in the colonies ? I dont know but I doubt it as they were more intended as trade items and would be more common in the hands of natives or Colonials in the back woods , as stated earlier ....

the OP’s question was were NW trade guns in the colonies during the revolutionary war period. The answer is generally no. When you say Northwest Trade Gun, that infers a fur trade era style of gun, it had a bigger wrist bigger forearm, and usually had a double bridle lock. We’re there earlier trade guns in the northwest English Northwest style yes, there were but not in great number. They started to produce them in greater numbers after 1770 but in far greater numbers in the 1800’s. The one reference din Neuman’s collection i would even argue isn’t a northwest trade gun, it has a Fowler trigger guard, an entry rammer pipe, a very early style Wilson lock, and a tang bolt that goes from the top of the tang to a trigger plate. His description of this gun is even in correct as it has three rammer pipes including an entry pipe and he documents it having two. The picture is even referencing two separate guns, one with a northwest triggerguard and one with a Fowler triggerguard.

The reference to the HBC was HBC was the company that distributed what collectors call a northwest trade gun.

That’s not to say that there were English Trade Guns being produced that are similar in style and design.

The more appropriate way to describe these is an English trade gun.