NWTG in the Colonies?

[rich pierce]

Sure, just as soon as you use your real name so I know to whom I am speaking.

Ok, I’ll fill in for Longwalker. My name is Rich Pierce. Can you share your sources supporting the hypothesis that NWTGs (not any old dragon sideplate trade gun but actual NWTGs) were used in the 13 colonies before and during the Revolutionary War?

 

[Rob M.]

Ok, I’ll fill in for Longwalker. My name is Rich Pierce. Can you share your sources supporting the hypothesis that NWTGs (not any old dragon sideplate trade gun but actual NWTGs) were used in the 13 colonies before and during the Revolutionary War?

Look up the Oneida fighting with us during the Rev. War . They had plenty of early style N.W. Trade guns ( small bow trigger guards , slimmer stocks ) among other styles ...

 

[rich pierce]

Look up the Oneida fighting with us during the Rev. War . They had plenty of early style N.W. Trade guns ( small bow trigger guards , slimmer stocks ) among other styles ...

Not sure what makes these guns NWTGs in your mind. NWTG is not accepted as a catch-all name for any trade gun. Can you identify specific specimens of NWTGs the Oneida carried during the Revolutionary War and show them here, or cite a publication or book that shows them? Can you cite a record of trade or sale of specifically NWTGs to the Oneida during this period? This is what is commonly accepted as evidence.

 

[Rob M.]

LOL !

Not sure what makes these guns NWTGs in your mind. NWTG is not accepted as a catch-all name for any trade gun. Can you identify specific specimens of NWTGs the Oneida carried during the Revolutionary War and show them here, or cite a publication or book that shows them? Can you cite a record of trade or sale of specifically NWTGs to the Oneida during this period? This is what is commonly accepted as evidence.

LOL !!! No , I'm not going to do your research for you , I'm trying to point you in the right direction....You build my trade guns for me and I'll do your research for you ! N.W. trade gun was never a catch all name it refers to a specific firearm , DUH ... I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else of the presence of NW trade guns in the colonies, if no one believes me , I dont care . They weren't wide spread but they were there . There were a lot of different foreign fowlers and many types of trade guns from the French and English especially . There are so many examples found in collections and archeologically . The characteristics of the NW gun are stated many times in the HBCos records , I'm not going to repeat the characteristics of a N.W. Trade gun . I know what they are ...

 

[Rob M.]

My favorite early N.W .trade gun from the 17 teens . I forget the makers name . His contract with HBCo ended in 1721 I believe it was ....

 

[Rob M.]

One of My favorite N.W. guns made in 1751

 

[rich pierce]

I’m not sure why I’d research something already researched extensively without annyone finding evidence supporting your position. Enjoy your faith journey. Everyone is free to believe what they want, regardless of data. No worries.

 

[FlinterNick]

Not sure what makes these guns NWTGs in your mind. NWTG is not accepted as a catch-all name for any trade gun. Can you identify specific specimens of NWTGs the Oneida carried during the Revolutionary War and show them here, or cite a publication or book that shows them? Can you cite a record of trade or sale of specifically NWTGs to the Oneida during this period? This is what is commonly accepted as evidence.

I agree with Rich, NWTG is not a catch phrase for one single pattern of trade guns, it’s a reference to a particular style of arms from an era, with key salient features. NWTG should not be referenced as to any trade gun from the Revolutionary War. War of 1812 perhaps.

 

[PathfinderNC]

The OP “would like to think some were carried in that time and place.”
Well, there’s nothing stopping someone from imagining what they want.
Just don’t let snarky facts get in the way, if it even matters in imagination world

 

[Dale Lilly]

Wow! You guys simply amaze me with your abundance of accurate information, I am learning. Dale

 

[FlinterNick]

The OP “would like to think some were carried in that time and place.”
Well, there’s nothing stopping someone from imagining what they want.
Just don’t let snarky facts get in the way, if it even matters in imagination world

Did continental militia use blue or red lightsabers ? Hmmmm

 

[PathfinderNC]

Did continental militia use blue or red lightsabers ? Hmmmm

Dooh!

 

[Rob M.]

Oh , I know ....just a bunch of D.A.s know it alls . They are humorous in their stup!d!+y thinking there is a piece of paper floating around somewhere saying " 10% of the N.England population carried / used N.W. Trade guns during the Revolutionary War ..." . A neat couple things ....The folks here in Ohio that got Tecumseh's N.W. gun in a trade for a rifle used it for decades , generations for hunting around the homestead , thank goodness they didnt have it converted ....a trade gun stock , War of 1812 , I have in my gun shop ...it was used for generations by a family in the Laurelville area . They used it till it was falling apart ... I got the stock , my buddy Alan got the brass furniture ... The British supplied the native with thousands of trade guns , N.W. guns among the styles , during the F&I war and the Rev. War . Over 12,400 N.W. guns to their Native allies during the War of 1812 . Many delegates and observer's sent to native villages mention how well the Indians were armed . I'm SO sure none of these ever got into the hands of U.S. citizens ! It was against the law !! LMAO !!! Arm chair D.A.s !!

 

[Rob M.]

Wonderful info from this gentleman .... Hope I got it all ...

 

[Clark Badgett]

Ok, I’ll fill in for Longwalker. My name is Rich Pierce. Can you share your sources supporting the hypothesis that NWTGs (not any old dragon sideplate trade gun but actual NWTGs) were used in the 13 colonies before and during the Revolutionary War?

Where the Iroquois Confederation not largely located in upstate NY along the border with Canada? If so, when the English ordnance board in 1753 ordered “northwest guns” sent to them, did they send them guns that were in the then fully formed “northwest gun” pattern or not? There is only roughly 70 years of research by many different men that fully point to what TODAY we call the NWTG being in full pattern, with every feature associated with it by 1749, with a fully intact physical specimen dated 1751. Yes, the Northwest gun WAS in the colonies. And like I said many posts back, the question is, “to what extent?”

 

[Rob M.]

Where the Iroquois Confederation not largely located in upstate NY along the border with Canada? If so, when the English ordnance board in 1753 ordered “northwest guns” sent to them, did they send them guns that were in the then fully formed “northwest gun” pattern or not? There is only roughly 70 years of research by many different men that fully point to what TODAY we call the NWTG being in full pattern, with every feature associated with it by 1749, with a fully intact physical specimen dated 1751. Yes, the Northwest gun WAS in the colonies. And like I said many posts back, the question is, “to what extent?”

You got it bud !! To what extent was the N.W. trade gun was in the colonies ? Its all speculation . Be great to see numbers on a contemporary piece of paper but thats not likely . Why would anyone care to start counting them ? Anyway ... Yes , they were present . I seriously doubt they were everywhere or everyone owned one ... They were probably more frequently seen the further west one went .... but , once again ... its all just speculation ...

 

[FlinterNick]

You got it bud !! To what extent was the N.W. trade gun was in the colonies ? Its all speculation . Be great to see numbers on a contemporary piece of paper but thats not likely . Why would anyone care to start counting them ? Anyway ... Yes , they were present . I seriously doubt they were everywhere or everyone owned one ... They were probably more frequently seen the further west one went .... but , once again ... its all just speculation ...

But definitely not in the hands of organized militia.

 

[Rob M.]

But definitely not in the hands of organized militia.

Theres no way of knowing ...Militia carried whatever they had .... If 50 guys showed up to a militia meeting , gathering or to go into action ...if 2 or 3 had a N.W. trade gun , esp if they lived near the outskirts of the civilized area ...sure , its possible . If all 50 , or even half of them are thought to have been armed with N.W. trade guns , LOL .... No , of course not . But ....once again ...its all speculation , no one knows . Be interesting if someone found couple quotes or such from a contemporary source . Be great reading ...

 

[FlinterNick]

Theres no way of knowing ...Militia carried whatever they had .... If 50 guys showed up to a militia meeting , gathering or to go into action ...if 2 or 3 had a N.W. trade gun , esp if they lived near the outskirts of the civilized area ...sure , its possible . If all 50 , or even half of them are thought to have been armed with N.W. trade guns , LOL .... No , of course not . But ....once again ...its all speculation , no one knows . Be interesting if someone found couple quotes or such from a contemporary source . Be great reading ...

There actually is a way of knowing, it’s called physical evidence and there is none and there is very little written evidence to suggest northwest trade guns were used by militia, most of the evidence is in exhibit form, to identify what a northwest trade gun is, not the actual pattern itself.

Your generalization of what militia used is flawed, they certainly didn’t carry what ever they had, many did not hav guns and were provided contract arms, having a bayonet was also a requirement, not an option.

There is no speculation if they were used or not, there is no physical evidence.

I suggest you give Clay Smith a call, and ask him about Revolutionary War trade guns, and ask him specifically if Northwest Trade Guns were around in the colonies and used by militia another known expert on trade guns of that era is Mike Brooks aka comfortablynumb, careful his answers are very clear and concise.

 

[Clark Badgett]

But definitely not in the hands of organized militia.

I don’t think anyone has argued the use in organized militia, as in colony approved militias which had set standards of bore size and equipment, or tried to have. There is a distinct possibility a few were found floating around the western fringes of PA, VA and the Carolinas. In fact a good many years ago I did read an article that had a NW gun that supposedly had provenance to AWI usage, but I am still looking for it.