octagon to round flintlock barrel southern rifle?

[olskool]

were there any known original southern flintlock rifles "rifled barrel " with octagon to round barrels? i am interested in building one in that configuration. or maybe a tapered barrel. if there were no known original guns built like that i might start a new trend, LOL,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[rich pierce]

I’m sure that one or two are known. Most SMRs weighed 10 pounds in average. They liked them heavy. None are made that way now. Folks don’t want authentic. They want light. Build what works for you. Nobody is making them as they were, insofar as barrel dimensions are concerned.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

I'm going off memory, and since Covid, that's been a bit fuzzy at times. As I recall, there was a gun builder that built the gun that Mark Baker shoots. His "Mariah" is an Octagon to Round .50 calibre rifle and I believe that the builder was Brennan or Brendan...anyways, that gun was based off an historic original, I do believe.

 

[Cattywompuss]

I’m sure that one or two are known. Most SMRs weighed 10 pounds in average. They liked them heavy. None are made that way now. Folks don’t want authentic. They want light. Build what works for you. Nobody is making them as they were, insofar as barrel dimensions are concerned.

One thing to remember is that "Southern" does not inherently mean SMR. The most ornately silver mounted American longrifle ever produced was made in Central Georgia. SMRs are very different than guns made outside the mountains in The South.

 

[The Crisco Kid]

Build what you like. My theory is that there are, or were, a lot of rifles and guns built in the old days that reflected the ideas of the builder. Building copies is boring.

 

[Dphar1950]

I'm going off memory, and since Covid, that's been a bit fuzzy at times. As I recall, there was a gun builder that built the gun that Mark Baker shoots. His "Mariah" is an Octagon to Round .50 calibre rifle and I believe that the builder was Brennan or Brendan...anyways, that gun was based off an historic original, I do believe.

Most 1/2 oct “rifles” were rifle stocked smooth bores, smooth rifles. I avoid 1/2 oct like the plague. They more machine operations the more chance for accuracy issues.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

The 1803 Harper's Ferry was the first octy to round contract rifle.
Hardly a smoothbore

 

[Dphar1950]

The 1803 Harper's Ferry was the first octy to round contract rifle.
Hardly a smoothbore

You did read the word “MOST”, right? That infers and was intended to mean NOT ALL. The 1803s… I would also point out that the 1803s had an issue with barrels bursting in the round section which required shortening the barrel. Lewis and Clark had two such and Pike had some as well. Poor iron or faulty welding I assume.. And it was not a contract rifle. It was made at the Gov’t arsenal at Harpers Ferry. Why? Because the contract rifles were crap and unreliable. To head off the idea that it was Contract Rifles taken West with L&C, note that Lewis had had experience with them in service. AND there were 15 more made than ordered in the first run of 1803s. Lewis took 15 rifles. The prototypes were in the works when Lewis arrived and he had an order stating that Harpers Ferry make whatever he wanted. Knowing the problems with the Contract Rifles then in storage at HF I can’t see him taking them West. And the Contract Rifles were not “short”.
Anyway when I see a rifle stocked gun with a 1/2 octagonal barrel I think it’s a smooth rifle.

 

[Norman Brooks]

I believe this is a Buck's county. Not for sure how far south you are talking...

 

[tenngun]

Build what you like. My theory is that there are, or were, a lot of rifles and guns built in the old days that reflected the ideas of the builder. Building copies is boring.

I would add that although there were styles and local influences folks did get guns made from mismatched parts. Guns were restocked, sometimes by men who had no interest in school.

 

[French Colonial]

I would add that although there were styles and local influences folks did get guns made from mismatched parts. Guns were restocked, sometimes by men who had no interest in school.

So true, I have seen some originals that were from the horrid school, they worked but were terrible to look at.

Not everyone was a skilled craftsman back then either.

 

[Dphar1950]

I would add that although there were styles and local influences folks did get guns made from mismatched parts. Guns were restocked, sometimes by men who had no interest in school.

Or particular skill. But breaking the stock very seldom resulted in the loss of most/all of the metal parts. And there is no reason to make something that is hodgepodge today. This said, parts were transported then as now, only slower. Some Virginia rifles used the same buttplate as found on some Moravian/Lancaster rifles so finding a Virginia rifle with “Lancaster” castings is not a parts gun. This got even worse when suppliers lIke Tryon started shipping parts in the early 19th c. And most gunmakers bought barrel blanks from “barrel mills” there were a number of them in PA by the Revolution. And most used imported locks.
Finally, what we call the SMR were made in areas where the economy was very depressed. So they were often made as low cost as possible and still be accurate and reliable. The guns with buttplates usually had a shop made BP since they are pretty easy to make from iron sheet. Much easier than casting one from brass.

 

[tenngun]

Or particular skill. But breaking the stock very seldom resulted in the loss of most/all of the metal parts. And there is no reason to make something that is hodgepodge today. This said, parts were transported then as now, only slower. Some Virginia rifles used the same buttplate as found on some Moravian/Lancaster rifles so finding a Virginia rifle with “Lancaster” castings is not a parts gun. This got even worse when suppliers lIke Tryon started shipping parts in the early 19th c. And most gunmakers bought barrel blanks from “barrel mills” there were a number of them in PA by the Revolution. And most used imported locks.
Finally, what we call the SMR were made in areas where the economy was very depressed. So they were often made as low cost as possible and still be accurate and reliable. The guns with buttplates usually had a shop made BP since they are pretty easy to make from iron sheet. Much easier than casting one from brass.

That’s all true. We want to think of a gunmaker doing all by hand when imported parts were common.
And they were craftsman. A lost part might be fashioned to look like it fit.
But we see a lot of old guns with no ‘school’
I don’t THINK SMR were made on the cheap. Many were silver mounted. I THINK that the style evolved via taste. The Beans were turning out high quality plain guns. There was a move toward plain during the federal era, and I think the south let it flower.
While beech , rarely cherry, and walnut were used as local woods, maple and high quality maple at that remained popular.
I Think out po’r boys are more popular today then in the past, but I’m also of the OPINION that many plain guns went in to metal drives in the world wars.
We see so many fine guns left today because I think we have a predator trap.

 

[Dphar1950]

People who can hardly afford flour and beans are not going to have silver on a rifle. Sure there were people with more money than others. But you need to watch Sgt York with Gary Cooper. The rifle on the frontier was multi purpose, food, defense and recreation. Rifle matches were recreation. There is an account of a Rev War militia unit arriving at a Fort in Kentucky and one of the first things was a rifle match. In Kentucky where powder and shot were precious. It was won by a locals WIFE btw. The prize being chopping the lead out of the stump used as a back stop. But it need not be a fancy rifle it had to be durable, accurate and reliable first. Now a young unmarried man might work out enough money or trade to have a fancier rifle. Kinda like one today with a jacked up diesel pickup. And according to a man I knew in my late teens, it was not just plain guns that went to scrap. He told me that when he retuned from WW-I (he went to Canada and enlisted before US involvement) that he only had the stock from one of his “good guns” left. But in the land of the SMR they were still in use as hunting tools, thankfully. See Sgt York again. They were cheaper to shoot and already in hand. Money was short in the then West and whiskey was actually used as cash here and there and this was the cause of the Whiskey Rebellion. Fast forward to mid-20th c Montana and people I know were killing deer with single shot 22 LR cause it was cheap groceries.

 

[hanshi]

One thing to remember is that "Southern" does not inherently mean SMR. The most ornately silver mounted American longrifle ever produced was made in Central Georgia. SMRs are very different than guns made outside the mountains in The South.

Agree completely. At the UGA museum years ago they had a collection of Georgia built rifles there for a few months, and of course I was there with my eye balls. None was an SMR and many were halfstock. All were beautifully carved, engraved with many sporting silver and gold inlays. Yes, it was like peeking into Heaven.

 

[Dphar1950]

A friend of mine made a copy of one such. He did a swivl breech version as well. This was over 50 years ago. The Burris was the founder or Burris Scopes. The original is attributed to Georgia.

 

[olskool]

that is stunning,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[Dphar1950]

When Burris passed away a few years ago a guy bought it at the auction for 900 bucks with the lock complete but disassembled. He wrote me about the rifle telling me that it has over 200 piercings in the patchbox and inlays and there are no errors in the inletting. Don trained as a photo engraver after hos return from the Korean War.
Here is a selection. He started building rifles in the late 1950s was full time by the mid-60s. Made a lot of Fl fullstock Hawkens in the late 60s until he retired. From Vincent Ohio Rifles to Rev war era swivel breeches. Side by side Beford Flintocks. Various pistols including at least one under hammer swivel breech pistol.

 

[Cattywompuss]

A friend of mine made a copy of one such. He did a swivl breech version as well. This was over 50 years ago. The Burris was the founder or Burris Scopes. The original is attributed to Georgia.View attachment 126465View attachment 126466View attachment 126467View attachment 126468View attachment 126469

That's the one I was referring too! Didn't know there was a copy! I first saw the rifle in an R.L Wilson book, and then started digging to find where in Georgia it was built. I believe it was southwest of Macon about fifty odd miles. Which for the time period puts it within 100 miles of the Chattahoochee River and Muscogee territory(until the Indian removal). I want to say it was built for a doctor.

 

[Dphar1950]

That’s all true. We want to think of a gunmaker doing all by hand when imported parts were common.
And they were craftsman. A lost part might be fashioned to look like it fit.
But we see a lot of old guns with no ‘school’
I don’t THINK SMR were made on the cheap. Many were silver mounted. I THINK that the style evolved via taste. The Beans were turning out high quality plain guns. There was a move toward plain during the federal era, and I think the south let it flower.
While beech , rarely cherry, and walnut were used as local woods, maple and high quality maple at that remained popular.
I Think out po’r boys are more popular today then in the past, but I’m also of the OPINION that many plain guns went in to metal drives in the world wars.
We see so many fine guns left today because I think we have a predator trap.

There are many sides to the "plain gun" thing. Some were for farmers who only needed a gun to shoot a hog or steer. Some were not even kept in the house. Then we have the "plain" religious thing is some Christian spinoff sects. Where fancy anything could be a sign of pride. 7 groove rifling could also easily have a Biblical base. Then there was fashion.
And as you point out plain does not mean low quality or ugly.
Then we have the fact that is some areas smooth bores were met with derision and mockery. This was detailed in a journal entry when someone got off a flatboat in either Ohio or Kentucky (I read it some time back maybe this is in the "Frontier Rifleman") and was laughed at. There was another account of a man captured in the ambush of a flatboat on the Ohio who stated that he and his employer, a lawyer going to Kentucky on a legal matter, were armed "with nothing better than light fowling pieces". He was only saved from the stake buy a British trader buying him from his captors and being taken to Detroit and repatriated. And rifles were cheaper in the long run since they used less powder and lead. IIRC there were quite a few of the poor boy type in some parts of PA. Some did not even have trigger guards.
The Beans could have made brass mounted rifles as easily as iron. But it was a local/regional fashion thing I suspect. And in the west iron mounting was more common, there were all brass mounted Hawken Mountain rifles, one at least, its in the Cody Firearms Museum. Looks just like the iron mounted rifles but it all brass mounting. All these makers got locks from suppliers that could furnish any hardware they wanted. Plain or engraved. So it was either fashion or economics or a measure of both. So pay for the part, careful inletting and a rifle with engraved brass or white metal patchbox and inlays with no engraving done by the maker.
Its something we may never get a complete handle on. But economics is a factor. A friend of mine, a Kentucky resident, gave a long talk on the SMR at our guide fair a few years back. In his opinion the plain rifle was the result of the economics. There were makers who moved from PA that then changed to the style because the rifles they made in PA were too costly to the residents in the area they moved too.