OK ya'll , sharpen your pencils ...what is this gun ??

[zukeeper1]

any ideas of what this smoothbore is and what is missing in its ignition system ?
why is the door able to slide on the shaft with the spring ? what purpose could this be for ?
any information would be greatly appreciated , I am way out of my territory on this one.
If you need more pictures just let me know what and where
it has the numbers 6 6 and a real small circle with E L or maybe E L C inside on the breech area of the barrel

 

[rabjr]

Isn't that a snider breechloader action?

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/firearms/britain/snider/se18661109eng.htm

 

[fluggies4]

It's a breech-loading alteration of a Belgian or French percussion military musket. Also known by the name "Zulu", which you may see stamped on top of the barrel. They were sold to African regions for use by the natives.
The breechblock pulls back to extract the shotgun shell, which it was modified to use.
The action is similar to the Snider, but is not a Snider. Looks like the firing pin is missing.

 

[Rod Lassey]

The above two posts pretty much say it all. All I can add is that the conversion is known as the Tabatiere (sp.?) system, esentially the same as the Snider Enfield action. The ELG in an oval is a Liege, Belgium proof.

Loads of old muskets were converted in this manner in the late 1800s-early 1900s, and not shipped just to Africa, many came to the US and Canada--shipped worldwide, actually.

Rod

 

[Stumpkiller]

LOL! I have one just like it. Mine has the word "BRESCIA" in the lower rim of the oval on the back-action lock sideplate By great coincedence that is the region/provence/city of Italy that Pedersoli is located in! May or may not have started life as an Italian musket of some type. Grandpa used it as a true barn-gun, which is the service it now serves me (note the dust - guess it's time to clean her up a bit :redface: ). Hasn't blown up with low-brass 12 ga shells . . . yet.

These were converted from old military muskets and dumped on the market cheap by firms like Bannerman's. Probably distributed through hardware & general stores.

Looks like you're missing the transfer firing pin, a spring and a retaining bolt. Ejection is simply pulling the Snider-type breech block back and that slips the shell out 1/2" and it slides out easily after that. May or may not have been chambered for a 2-1/2" shotshell (common at the time) but to use the word "chamber" is optomistic. Rugged like a ball-peen hammer (in fact, the hammer alone probably weighs more than my smallest pall-peen hammer. :rotf: Though, actually, it don't point half bad. :hmm:

 

[zukeeper1]

oh my gawd , you shoot one of these LOL....much braver than I am !!
Mine is destined for the wall , however I do tend to have a quirk. It drives me nuts when something is not complete.....
is there any way you can post me pictures of the firing pin assembly ? I am sure I could mill one out if I knew what it was supposed to look like. Great pictures and thanks to all who posted ( and hopefully keep posting ) for the information. I told my wife I had no idea what it was but I knew some folks that would :grin:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Yep. First trials were the old "Lay it between old car tires and fire it with a rope tied to the trigger while hiding behind a tree" integrity test. The chamber walls of this tomato stake are 1/2" of steel around the shell head and that breech plug has more contact area than any of my high-power bolt actions. I shoot a Krag that has a LOT less mating surface (though I haven't shot it in 20 years).

I'll pull the parts, photo and mic them for you when I get a chance.

 

[zukeeper1]

that would be awesome , thank you !!

 

[Mulebrain]

Stumpy,

That looks like fungus growing at the breech area of the that Snider :grin:

What is it?

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

What you have is a French military conversion of the French M1853 musket, nicknamed " 'a Tabatiere" or "the Snuff box". Considered to be the largest caliber breech loading military gun ever, they were a stop gap gun from the earliest days of the cross over to breech loading. All saw use by the weapons strapped French in the Franco-Prussian War and were surplussed soon after that conflict. Few if any were sent to Africa, most stayed in Europe or were sent to the US and Canada after conversion to standard 12 gauge shotguns (BLACK POWDER ONLY!!) and they ended their useful lives in barns and smokehouses. For good, accurate information on these interesting guns see:
[url] http://www.militaryrifles.com/France/Tabatier.htm[/url]

and
[url] http://www.militaryrifles.com/France/Carabine.htm[/url]

 

[Stumpkiller]

Stumpy,

That looks like fungus growing at the breech area of the that Snider :grin:

What is it?

Dust. The breech was covered with it and scraped it aside into the chamber as it was opened. :redface: At least it shows the tolerances are good. Hey, it's a barn gun. Lucky there wasn't a mouse nest and a wad of seed husks. :haha:

I did get it "stripped" and will take measurements tonight. As suspected the pin has a return spring and a little slotted cap screw captures it in the hole. We have here what might well be the ultimate survival gun. This mechanism will be working 2,000 years from now.

 

[mazo kid]

Stumpy, great photos and analysis. I had picked up one of these up in pretty good shape many years ago at a gun show. Unfortunately, someone wanted it more than I did so I sold it a couple of years ago. Mine had a 1/2"-5/8" hole bored into the right side of the butt stock; supposedly the wood thus collected from these guns was sent to the Pope to be blessed.Interesting old guns; somewhat similar in concept to the conversions of our old muskets into breechloaders. I was always gonna load up a shell with black powder just to say I had shot it but never did do that.

 

[oldwolf]

I have one of these also. :grin:

Below is some info I have on these interesting artifacts.

[url] http://www.midwayusa.com/guntecdictionary.exe/showterm?TermID=5252[/url]

Definition for "Zulu shotgun" : A name for a number of shotguns converted from European military rifles. The "Zulu" shotgun was converted in the "Snider" fashion to 12 gauge shotguns. They were converted from old 12 Bore Muskets (.74 calibre), as newer rifled muskets became available to the troops these now obsolete smooth bored percussion guns were no longer required. The term Zulu is a misnomer as very few ever reached African native Zulu. These breechloading shotguns were sold from the late 1800s well into the 1900s.

[url] http://www.oldguns.net/q&a12_97.htm#948[/url]
# 948 - Shotgun- Belgian "Zulu"
12/13/97
Ash - Bear, DE - USA -
Maker Model Caliber Barrel Length Finish Serial Number
Unknown Unknown 12 Ga. 34 Years Of Wear - It Is Just Old Metal Now 7xx + logo
The logo is an egg shaped ellipse with an "E" over an "L G" over a five pointed star all inside the ellipse. The single shot shotgun is breech loaded with a percussion style hammer which strikes an external firing pin. There is a spring which pushes the hammer back from the firing pin and when the hammer is cocked the breech can be flipped up and over to the right side of the gun so the center fire shell can be inserted from the top of the stock into the rear of the barrel. There are also a few shields stamped into the metal of the trigger guard and other parts which have the five pointed star along with an "M" stamped inside the shield. Who is the maker and how old is the gun?

Answer:
Ash- The hinged breechblock pretty well identifies this as a "Zulu" shotgun. These started life as French Model 1857 muzzle loading percussion muskets. They were later converted to breechloaders using the hinged breechblock, but were basically obsolete even then. A few were used by the Frenchin the Franco Prussion War (1870-71) and most were sold around 1874 to Belgian surplus dealers. The stocks were cut down, the barrels bored out smooth and sold as cheap shotguns. Instead of just being called "Ugly old French muskets made into cheap shotguns" the dealers coined the name "Zulu" invoking images of fierce warriors hunting in the wilds of Africa. These were sold all over the world, Sears offered them for $3.40 to $4.50 in the 1880s and 90s. They are great wall hangers, and dealers rejoice when they can sell one for anything more than about $75.00 today. Guns are loaded with insights into evolving technology, the growth and decline of nations, and the ingenuity of men and women engaged in free enterprise. Wow! You get all this free with each and every Zulu! Just think how much you will know if you invest in one of the fascinating collectable guns we offer on the catalog pages... John Spangler

 

[Stumpkiller]

Whel start peddlin the lathe flywheel 'cause I got a handfull of measurements.

Retaining screw - 0.258" overall length, outside dia. of head 0.224, outside dia of threads 0.134, threaded section length 0.095" NOT 6-32 thread though it is mighty close. Metric?

Spring 0.930" long at rest, 0.285" outside dia.

Pin 2.160" overall length. Starting from the tip: 0.174" nose, 1.040 to first shoulder, 1.180" to second shounder, 0.304: diameter (first band between those ranges). Thins to 0.244" for the next 0.270". Increases in dia to 0.308" for the next 0.295". Opens out to 0.415" for the exposed nob. Knurled and slightly domed at the upper end.

Good luck.

 

[zukeeper1]

Oh heck ya !! Great picture and thank you for the accurate measurements . Doesn't look to hard to create. I don't mind metal work at all....but wood hates me :grin:

thanks again , this is perfect :wink:

 

[Grenadier1758]

Opens out to 0.0415" for the exposed nob. Knurled and slightly domed at the upper end.

Double check your measurements for the exposed knob. I would think that is 0.415" Fast or fat fingers often get the better of me.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Right you are. Got an extra zero there. That'd make it a Dryse needle-gun ;-)

 

[zukeeper1]

Hope a grade 8 shoulder bolt is hard enough for a shot or two :grin: Heres what I ended up with.

 

[Stumpkiller]

You 'da man!

Nice work. :applause: :applause:

 

[Bearbait2]

Mr. zukeeper 1,
WOW! Mighty nice.
Best Wishes