• Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.

    We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.

    Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103

Old Muzzleloader Identification Needed

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

RMSLS1

32 Cal
Joined
Dec 14, 2021
Messages
27
Reaction score
23
Location
Texas
I am new to the forum. I would like to get info on an old muzzle loader rifle I recently acquired. The are really no markings to see on the rifle. I have not disassembled it for any markings hidden. The lock plate has some difficult to read markings and a picture of a hunting dog and fowl.
  • The overall length is 54" and the barrel measures 36" long and slightly over 15/16".
  • I do not know the caliber, but a 21/64" (.328) drill bit fits down the barrel.
  • There are initials carved into the barrel "CA".
  • The hammer and patch box cover are missing.
  • I think the patch box is made out of pewter, since it is not magnetic.
  • There is some scroll decorations on the bottom of the butt plate.
  • The stock appears to be a curly maple.
  • The stock has a break at the wrist and has a vintage repair, along with a repair near near the barrel drum/nipple.
I was hoping to find about what vintage this rifle was and the style to describe it.

Rifle 04 Lock.jpg
Rifle 01  Left stock r01.jpg
Rifle 02 Left Side r01.jpg
Rifle 03 Top Side r01.jpg
Rifle 04 Lock r01.jpg
Rifle 05 Right Side r01.jpg
Rifle 06 Barrel Initials r01.jpg
 
The lock definitely says "Goulcher" on it. That was a common lock used by a lot of builders. The rest of the rifle looks like a mid west or Ohio pattern. Vincent would be one such maker, but not the only one.
 
It hard to believe you found a picture like my rifle. Do you have a link to online site?
 
The under rib is metal.

Could you elaborate on what should be done to rifle? It appears the finish is original.
 
I should also added what should not be done. For me, I would like t find a hammer and patch box cover.
 
WORL, H. — Pennsylvania, early flintlock period.
WORL, H. — Unlocated. Maker of over-under barels for percussion rifles. Rifle lock, stock and furniture by D. Young.
WORLEY — Wyomissing Creek, Pa. Built two gun shops on the Wyo missing about 1811. (Same as J. Worly above?) Was succeeded by John Keim, his superintendent.
WORLEY, David— East Finley Township, Washington Co., Pa. Per cussion period.
WORLEY, Henry — Son of Worley above. Shop superintendent for Benjamin Mohn, a Wyomissing Creek, Pa., gun-maker. Bought Mohn's shops on latter's retirement, prior to Civil War, and carried on the business until about 1880.
 
Barrel on this old half stock has the transverse grind stone marks on it. Have seen only a couple like this. The fracture in the wrist is very fixable. Lock might be fixed , A trip to the barrel rifling shop and good to go. Fix 'er up !!!
 
Oldwood, could you elaborate on what you think the Traverse grind stone marks may mean, since they are rare? The entire hidden part of the barrel was done this way.
I would like to get the wrist fixed, but is has been glued together possibly years ago. Not sure how to un-glue and get a better repair. You mentioned a barrel rifling shop, do you have one in mind?
 
Back in the early times , one way the way m/l barrels were shaped , or had the octagon flats cut on to them was with a round grind stone turned transversely powered by a water wheel. The barrel I saw back in the late 1980's , still had the lines on the barrel , and its owner said it was common for gun builders making an inexpensive mountain rifle like his , to leave the lines in place. Files and scrapers had to be hand made , and were time consuming to produce. The rifle my friend displayed ,was an over-the-log target gun , 12 to 15 lbs.in weight.
Bobbie Hoyt is a popular barrel rifling guy in eastern Pa. . 30 + years ago , he did work for me on barrels for a couple restoration jobs , and his work is very good. He might have an on line web site..........oldwood
 
It hard to believe you found a picture like my rifle. Do you have a link to online site?
I think it was this one but honestly if you just do a Google images search for "Goulcher locks" there are a bunch of them that show up. They were sold commercially in the 1800s and lots of builders used them. I found several with exactly the same engraving yours has so it's safe to assume those were one of their common designs. Also found some with a similar design only using ducks from the same maker. Muzzle loading rifle by an unknown maker
 
I was wondering if anyone could help identify my patch box. It appears to be something like pewter. It is non magnetic. I have not been able to find a pewter patch box anywhere. I don't think it is brass. I would like to make a cover for it. The screws are iron.
Rifle 05 Right Side r01.jpg
Rifle 05 Right Side Patchbox.jpg
 
Nice find , I'd say the cap box ,not patch , is probably German silver aka Nickle silver ,
As others say get a hammer and screw from TOTW , I recommend you remove the lock and if there is any rust or it is gummed up in any way, soak it in a penetrating oil for a while before you try to move anything then take it to pieces and clean everything before you try to **** it , gently does it . Fit a new nipple , once again TOTW will probably have one to fit , if not they have the taps to open it up to the next size .
I like the large V back sight and the small , low fore sight , too many reproductions' these days have large tall fore sights .
Henry Worley : Became superintendent in the gunshops of Benjamin Mohn Gunmaker on Wyomissing creek ,Pa . Worley brought out Mohn prior to the Civil War and and continued until about 1875 . Son of J Worley who had 2 gunshops on Wyomissing creek
Gun makers set up on creeks for the water power needed to power grind stones for barrel making etc
Keep oil ,polish etc out of the crack in the stock as it will make it difficult to glue
 
The rifle should be brought back too shooting condition a bit of work and the old girl will be killin squirrels again, I have a older full stock sitting now waiting on a trip too be re bored bye HOYT will probally take it to a 40 as there is a lot of metal in the barrel. (depends on what Mr. Hoyt recommends) I would guess the gun would date too civil war times. It is marked but all I can make out is it looks like shetromphf or similar name, it also has a gloucher percussion lock other than the barrel needing some attention it is in very good condition.
 
Your capbox appears to be pewter, as you thought, same material used for cast nose caps on many later half-stocked rifles. Your capbox may have been cast in place, similar to casting a nose cap in place, and then screws added to make sure it didn't loosen or pull up over time... since cast pewter isn't as rigid or strong as cast brass... and maybe that's why the lid failed. The lower edge of the finial seems, in my view, to have a slightly feathered edge, which can occur if cast in place. The slight irregularities around the capbox's perimeter suggests it was hand-made by the gunsmith, one of a kind. If cast in place, the mortise may have been undercut around the edges to better hold the box in, so....... be careful if/when you try to remove it.

One possibility for an almost-matching lid would be to use the closest standard brass lid, and when fitted and installed, rough the lid's outer surface and simply coat it with a soft, non-silver, cheap solder and wipe off the excess. It should stick to the clean/roughened brass, and, with a little time, it will turn gray. If not gray enough or the color you want, get an even cheaper solder and simply do it again.

I would be uncomfortable trying to shoot this rifle again with its re-glued stock, since you know nothing about how it was "fixed." Whenever a major wrist break occurs, the stock's integrity is compromised. If the wrist repair is an old glue joint, it probably used only glue, without any dowel rods or pins to hold and reinforce the joint and better insure the two parts stay together... and can tolerate hard thumps again. Sometimes these old rifles, when heavily used and damaged, are best just restored to look whole again, and then put back up on the wall to enjoy and think about what they may have seen during their working days.

Shelby Gallien
 
Last edited:
Back
Top