Oldest, Most Historical gun

[Old Ironsights]

What's the oldest, most historical gun you have ever had the honor of carressing (and trying not to drool on)? Here's mine:

The rifle is provenanced as being a gift from Ben Franklin (yes, 'ol $100 himself) to an Indian Chief in 1753, then retrofitted to percussion some 100+ years later, before finding its way to the current "owner" 100+ years after that. :shocked2: It is now sitting in a small museum here in Indiana. It's probably worth more than the whole town. :youcrazy:

Here's what the museum has to say:

 

[dlemaster]

Old Ironsights
I see why you like that rifle so well, it has a lot of good things going for it.
I don't believe that it could possibably date to 1753 though. These are just my thoughts hopefully others will add their thoughts.
That rifle is a fully evolved American longrifle. Most collectors and knowledgable students don't feel the evolution was that far along in 1753.
Note the curvature of the buttplate, that looks more like a 1790s period buttplate to me. The triggerguard also doesn't seem to have the bulk of a very early rifle guard and the grip rail curve up to the wrist is certainly a later feature.
Still it is a beautiful rifle.

Regards, Dave

 

[Old Ironsights]

Interesting. Being the Black Plastic & Stainless Flintlock kind of guy I am, I certainly wouldn't think to argue over Period details. All I know is what the curator & scrap of paper in the stock said.

Still though, as you say, it's a sweet gun.

 

[bwhoffman]

I got to hold, fondle and drool over an original Austian Military model 1780 airgun. As of late discovery, it is a twin brother to the one Lewis and Clark had with them on their journey this way to the PNW.
500 psi airtank, pumped by hand with a bicycle type pump, into a hammer forged, forge welded airtank (rear stock)about 40 cal, 21 shot with enough omph to drop a deer at 150 yards.
Thinking I wouldn't want that air tank under my cheek with those pressures!

Brett

 

[mikee51848]

The half king!? The scoundrel who crushed the skull of the French diplomat and tricked George Washington into starting the F&IW!

 

[Maestro]

What's the oldest, most historical gun you have ever had the honor of carressing (and trying not to drool on)?

Well, last year I met George Neumann at a local gun show (very nice man) and I got to "pick his brain" a little. He was selling some guns from his collection and I handled an original Rev War era fowler. What a great feeling - sort of like walking the hallowed grounds of Gettysburg and Valley Forge!

 

[No Deer]

Back during the BiCentennial I shot an original Brown Bess. A friend had bought it at an auction and traced the serial number. It had been originally issued to a Captain in the British army during the revolution, at least that is the info they turned up on it.

 

[Stophel]

The above gun is definitely NOT 1753! Very 1790's. I have seen carving like that behind the cheek somewhere before. Not my particular area of interest, so can't say offhand just who. I'm thinkin' maybe the younger Albrecht/Albright or Isaac Berlin....

Most important guns I have been privy to handle: the famous gun "number 21", the early Reading rifle; "gun 42", the Bethlehem/Christians' Spring area rifle; the "brass barreled rifle"; and a presumed Shenandoa valley rifle that looks 1770 to me that has been published in a magazine article a few years ago, a gun that I find more interesting than the brass barreled gun!

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Back during the BiCentennial I shot an original Brown Bess. A friend had bought it at an auction and traced the serial number. It had been originally issued to a Captain in the British army during the revolution, at least that is the info they turned up on it.

That's interesting... :hmm:
British military guins were not serial numbered until the Lee-Enfield. Maybe you meant the "rack number"? Still, an officer in the King's Army didn't carry a musket...

My earliest is a Rev. War era (maybe slightly earlier) Shenandoah Valley fowler that I have owned for 20 years. Condition very rough but good architecture and some nice if slightly crude carving.

 

[hawkeye1755]

You mean the Seneca Chief Monakaduto,Half_king.That's the wrong one.
They mean this Half-King:Scarouady (Skaron' hiă'dǐ`, 'on the other side of the sky.'””Hewitt). An Oneida chief, sometimes called Half-King, who came into prominence about the middle of the 18th century. He was known among the Delawares as Monacatuatha, or Monakaduto. He is mentioned as early as 1748, and in 1753 was present at the Carlisle treaty. The following year he succeeded Half-King Scruniyatha in the direction of affairs at Aughwick, Pa. (Pa. Archiv., 1st s., ii, 114, 1853), whither he removed from Logstown to escape the influence of the French. On Jan. 7, 1754, he was in Philadelphia, on his way to the Six Nations with a message from the Governor of Virginia, and also by the desire of the Indians of Pennsylvania to ask the former to send deputies to a conference with the Governor. He was with Braddock at the time of his defeat, having made in the preceding May a speech to the Indians at Ft Cumberland urging them to join Braddock in his expedition. In 1756 he seems to have been attending conferences and making speeches, mostly in behalf of peaceful measures, in some of these efforts being joined by Andrew Montour. One of his speeches was made July 1, 1756, at the conference of the Six Nations with Sir William Johnson in behalf of the Shawnee and Delawares (N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., vii, 148, 1856). Mention is made in the same year of his son who had been taken prisoner by the French and afterward released, and who soon thereafter visited and conferred with Johnson. Scarouady was a firm friend of the English colonists, and as strong an enemy of the French. He was an orator of considerable ability, and was the leading speaker at the numerous conferences he attended. His home was on the Ohio Ruver in west Pennsylvania, where he exercised jurisdiction over the western tribes similar to that of Shikellimay over those in central Pennsylvania.
:hatsoff:

 

[Old Ironsights]

I got to hold, fondle and drool over an original Austian Military model 1780 airgun. As of late discovery, it is a twin brother to the one Lewis and Clark had with them on their journey this way to the PNW.
500 psi airtank, pumped by hand with a bicycle type pump, into a hammer forged, forge welded airtank (rear stock)about 40 cal, 21 shot with enough omph to drop a deer at 150 yards.
Thinking I wouldn't want that air tank under my cheek with those pressures!

Brett

You got me beat, as a Giroindi Repeating Air Rifle (or genuine repro) is the gun I want mostest in all the world. :bow:

(The lewis & clark gun was a .463, 22 shot model that could push up to 900fps - around 220ftlbs.)

 

[aragorn]

Someone with expertise needs to handle and appraise this gun as well as the provenance. Is that metal dedication plate likely to date from the 1750s? If not, then this is more likely to be bogus. On the rifle, is it possible to identify what was 'makeover' - eg is the butt plate original or a replacement? It's just possible that this is indeed a 1750s rifle but the makeover changed not only the brass furniture but also the shape of the stock, bringing it more in line with the styles favoured decades later when it was refurbished (I've wondered how often this was done to early rifles). On the other hand, the whole thing could be a tall story cooked up in the 19th c for a gun of c 1790-1800 that looked suitably 'old'.
Thanks for posting this - I certainly hope it stimulates someone to have a close look at it.

 

[tg]

The note may be real but in the wrong gun. I find it hard to picture an early gun being reworked to this architecture, it is a nice piece though.

 

[Ridge]

I'm local to the Shenandoah Valley. I'd like to see a picture of that gun...

 

[rebel727]

I've seen a lot of historical guns but the only ones I've actually handled are C.W. era weapons. I guess the most historical weapon I've handled is my 1861 Tower Enfield that saw heavy C.W. service as testified by the charred wood behind the nipple. Also someone took a pocketknife and making dots with the tip spelled out General U.S. in the stock then rubbed what appears to be candle wax in the holes to make it stand out. Some of it's still there.

 

[sledgemeister]

The half king!? The scoundrel who crushed the skull of the French diplomat and tricked George Washington into starting the F&IW!

not wanting to appear racist in any way shape or form but he was french!
Maybe he didnt like croissants?

 

[Zonie]

Well, it's not real old. Only 160 years, but it is mine.

My 1842 Springfield, made in 1846.

It most likely was used in the American/Mexican war, and I'm sure it was used in the American Civil War.
It's had some rough times, and I wouldn't think of shooting it but it is neat to have something that has been around that long.

I often hold it and wish it could tell me of the places it's been and the people it has seen.

 

[rebel727]

Well, it's not real old. Only 160 years, but it is mine.

My 1842 Springfield, made in 1846.

It most likely was used in the American/Mexican war, and I'm sure it was used in the American Civil War.
It's had some rough times, and I wouldn't think of shooting it but it is neat to have something that has been around that long.

I often hold it and wish it could tell me of the places it's been and the people it has seen.

Nice one Zonie :thumbsup: I do the same with my 1861 dated Enfield. Not a good pic but here she is.

 

[dlemaster]

This is what I noticed, taking into consideration the supposed alterations, it has been altered from flint to percussion as well as shortened into a half stock. The buttplate fits the stock very well then I looked closely at the carving behind the cheek piece. I noted how well the carving fills in that area to the buttplate, it was designed for that shape of buttstock. The triggerguard from what I can see of it fits in well with the style of buttplate and stock.

I think someone has found a very nice rifle and with the cheek piece inlay with the initals C.H.K., while old, decided it must stand for Chief Half King. Also I don't recall ever hearing of the Greater Council of Pennsylvania, that sounds like something a little later than F&I period. It looks like the inlay reads Gift of the Great Council of Pennsylvania.
I am concvinced this is a 1790s period rifle that either mistakenly or deliberatly was foisted onto the museum.

Regards, Dave

 

[Mike Brooks]

I'm afraid that gun was made long after Mr. Franklin was dead. Nice story though!